LIVE YOUR MYTH IN FRANCE.

[Turkhammer]

From the ninja I used to enjoy trampling with my horse I'll take that! 

Thing is I don't think me or Heskey have ever argued that unbridled immigration is a good idea. I'm all for more controls. It's the general all round hate of everything to do with a religion, with no consideration for the vastly differing people who practice it that we disagree with. Oberyn seems to put everyone associated with Islam under one umbrella and that's a very narrow field of view.

But I believe that you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the role of Islam (whether pure or perverted)  in inspiring, justifying, funding and abetting these attacks.  It's just as unwise to ignore that as it is to place blanket blame on all Muslims.  The perpetrators of the Paris attacks could not have hidden and "swum in the sea" of the Islamic communities in Brussels for so long without a good deal of help and cooperation.  IMO that is a result of some (who knows the percentage) Islamic immigrants and the first generation children of immigrants identifying more with Islam than with the country or society in which they live.

That would already quite a lot of millions people to burn though!

Hard to quantify.  May be less than you believe and probably decreasing in proportion to terror attacks and friction between native population and immigrants.

[Overdriven]

Nope at no point have I said I ignore it. In fact quite the opposite as I'm opposed to that particular hard core conservative ideology. You can't ignore the role of Islam unless you have your head in the sand.

[Oberyn]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/21/dont-scratch-your-thigh-in-front-of-my-wife-man-told-husband-of/

"Alps knife attacker stabbed family after father of victims 'scratched thigh' in front of his wife"

"While he "didn't say a word" during the attack, according to the victims, during questioning he shouted "Allahu Akbar" three times and then refused to talk. No Islamist material was found at his home."

"He is reported to have been on holiday at the resort with his pregnant wife and two children."

Hasn't had a job for 7 years, goes on "holiday" at an alpine resort with his wife and two kids. These people may loathe the west and it's culture but they sure do love it's welfare system.

http://www.nordeclair.fr/france-monde/operation-antiterroriste-en-cours-a-argenteuil-val-d-oise-jna0b0n1207506

And of course the usual round-up of terrorist scum that will be completely ignored by the general public since they got caught and arrested before they pulled off any attacks. It's like they don't even exist at all.

[Oberyn]

The dozens of times this happens every year and the hundreds of people arrested are not focused on for very obvious reasons. It would magnify how deeply imbedded, widespread and growing this attitude is among "moderate" muslims. And these are just the ones the security services are aware of. I'd be willing to bet money that most people still believe in the "lone wolf" propaganda about the Nice attacker and aren't aware of the network of material and moral support that made it possible, or the other people arrested in connection with the attack.

[Turkhammer]

To take an example that I'm sure will rapidly derail this thread as it normally does, when I mention 'gun control' (as I so often do), I'm not stating guns as the motive for murder (lol, how would that even?) but the means. Means and motive being two entirely different things, talking about potentially preventable factors such as the tools an individual person can use to easily inflict mass murder is not *instead* of any discussion about their motive, which in recent times is frequently radical Islam.

Yes, in my mind one thing is easier to control in the short term and could deliver more immediate gratification than the other in a real world setting, whilst there is no quick way to reform Islam but this more difficult path will have by far the most positive impact. Fortunately, this is not a Telltale game where you only get 1 option and it's either 'control weapons' (as a example, just an example before you explode lol) or 'de-radicalise Islam', both of these things can be happening at the same time (or neither). I choose this example because down both of those paths you will be met with angry resistance by those who wish to defend their way of life, the way they *know* to be best.

Take a look at the inside of the railway car in Germany that was the site of the axe attack and think about being locked in that car with the axe man with nothing but your bare hands and tell me that in that extremity you would not opt to have and use a pistol to stop him.  I know all the arguments about the crowd rushing him, and the possibility of being hit by a stray bullet.  My opinion is that they pale when compared to the reality of facing a man with an axe who has murderous intent.

I would support certain gun control measures if it could be conclusively demonstrated that they would prevent criminals, mental defectives etc from getting them.  That is a high bar.  What I will never support is the blanket denial of the means to a basic human right, the right to defend one's life.

[Xant]

Also this topic is gay, why is it called "Live your myth"? Panos lern 2 englsih.

[Vibe]

Greece doesn't have stories, they have myths.

[Bittersteel]

Like Alexander being a greek

[Turkhammer]

I figured someone here wouldn't be able to resist the gun point.

If I find myself in that situation I'd be much happier for the man to have an axe than a gun. I fancy my chances of at least surviving that encounter, relatively speaking.

We don't live in a magic dreamworld where only I would be allowed a gun and he'd still be coming at me with an axe. Far more likely in any world where I possess a gun, so does he. And frankly, my odds of survival were much better in a crowded train with an axeman.

The right to defend one's life is important, which is why I significantly favour the system that gives me and others around me the best possible chance of survival. I still have the right to defend myself, I'm just less likely to be facing someone who could easily kill me without significant effort on their part.

Well you raised it and I'm always happy to debate it.

It's no more of a dream world to be facing a knife or machete or axe without a pistol than it is to be facing a man with a pistol.  Have it your way.  Say he had a pistol.  The attack in Germany, a country with strict gun laws, proves it's only too possible that an 18 year old can possess one.  If he meant to kill all in that car, you would have a better chance if you were armed than bare handed. 

I understand your point about making guns more scarce may mean you are less likely to encounter one.  It's a good point.  However you are denying a 90 lb woman from protecting herself from a 250 assaulter or multiple attackers, or a 70 year old man from protecting himself from a 25 year old.    It may be fine for those individuals to have the right to defend their lives, as you say it is, but what good is that without the means?

[Bittersteel]

Only that if the terrorist has a gun, you'll be dead before you know it and if he has an axe you'll atleast have the chance to defend yourself.

[Osiris]

Guns are gud. You only have to look at America to see that plentiful guns make you safer and far less likely to be shot than in the UK France or Germany.





Also sarcasm if you didn't get it.

[Turkhammer]

Only that if the terrorist has a gun, you'll be dead before you know it and if he has an axe you'll atleast have the chance to defend yourself.

Oh so he's going to shoot all the people in the rail car simultaneously?  What's he got a multibarreled gun with each barrel pointed at every persons' head?

[Xant]

Only that if the terrorist has a gun, you'll be dead before you know it and if he has an axe you'll atleast have the chance to defend yourself.

Nope, any situation where you would be dead before you know it if the terrorist had a gun you would also be dead before you know it if the terrorist had an axe/knife/machete/shovel, e.g., sleeping or completely unaware of your surroundings.

[Bittersteel]

Oh so he's going to shoot all the people in the rail car simultaneously?  What's he got a multibarreled gun with each barrel pointed at every persons' head?

Oh right, so you'll have to hope he doesnt aim at you first, he then got the time to shoot five-six people? Or were you trained at the witcher school so you have enchaned senses that you wont be shocked by the blood and scream and gunshots and will pull out your gun as soon as you see him and emerge a hero? You sound like a COD kid.

Nope, any situation where you would be dead before you know it if the terrorist had a gun you would also be dead before you know it if the terrorist had an axe/knife/machete/shovel, e.g., sleeping or completely unaware of your surroundings.

Oh, sorta like in the rail car where he successfully killed a ton of people with an axe?

I'd rather be in a room with others being charged with an axe than sudden gun shots, boom, the guy next to me just got a bullet in his head, what do I do, wheres my gun, I'm panicking. He killed another four and now I'm dead.

[Grytviken]

Another attack in France...

https://twitter.com/conflicts/status/757870176624779264