Author Topic: Leave or stay in the EU?  (Read 96353 times)

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Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #495 on: June 07, 2016, 02:39:04 pm »
0
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/31/dalai-lama-eu-taking-many-migrants-germany-cannot-become-arab-country/

Shouldn't be surprising coming from a man who've fought his entire life to keep a Tibetan ethnic identity in the face of Chinese settlement of his homeland.

The Dalai Lama indeed harbors many conservative principles, it often surprises those who know him only through peace talks.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #496 on: June 09, 2016, 12:19:44 am »
-1
Shouldn't be surprising coming from a man who've fought his entire life to keep a Tibetan ethnic identity in the face of Chinese settlement of his homeland.

The two situations are quite different though.

Offline Moncho

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #497 on: June 15, 2016, 02:34:39 pm »
+1

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #498 on: June 15, 2016, 02:39:33 pm »
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British politics at its finest.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #499 on: June 15, 2016, 08:13:03 pm »
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This is proper British humor. Wouldn't happen anywhere else.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #500 on: June 17, 2016, 01:25:21 pm »
+2
God this Brexit thing.

I find it utterly ridiculous that it now looks like its going for a leave. Britons, look at the fucking map.

Look at Britain, now zoom out, zoom out further. You will see that Europe is actually a very small area on the globe, and that Britain is a sorry little island. The west, Europe and the US has everything to gain by standing steadfast together. A splintered Europe would be more easily manipulated by both China and the US, as well as played by the rest of the world.

You talk about sovereignty, but that is a flexible thing that you trade away a little bit of, with every shitty trade/political deal you make with all the world. You have a much worse bargaining position by sitting alone, thus if results were to be the same, you would have to trade away MORE sovereignty to gain the same.

To me it simply doesn't make any sense at all, except perhaps from an emotional point of view.

It is one thing I cannot stand from the Nationalist side everywhere. The strong tendency to blame others for your own perceived misery. You see it in Russia, Poland, US, yes, in any country with nationalist surges. It's just such an easy, emotional argument! We are actually great, but because of exterior forces we are not as great as we could be!

We are talking the mentality of a looser, a lazy stoner with delusions of greatness, IF the whole world wasn't against him. Such attitudes are laughed at, and completely unacceptable excuses in the personal sphere. Somehow it rolls in National politics though! Populist and power hungry politicians use this thinking, at the same time legitimizing it.

To make a comparison, for many Russians it's not their awfully corrupt and archaic bureaucracy to blame for their economic stagnation, nor is the inability to profit from meritocratic achievements pacifying the population. It's the awful west isolating poor Russia, which by the way is AT LEAST AS BAD, and Russia is clean with no gays. In Britain it's the same. Brits have huge problems seeing their own backwardsness. Their archaic systems, their undemocratic and extremely unfair class-system. The general merciless brutality of their own society.

The only point Brexiters might have is about immigration, but that too is moot. The vast, vast majority of immigrants to Britain are there because of your own Empire. And besides, even though the EU is a bit slow to react, I'm confident it will reduce or even stop immigration in time. Long before Europe (800 million people) will take any reasonable damage.

You can of course join the EEC. Pay a lot of money, and basically be a powerless vassal within the EU, just like Norway, having to implement all the rules and regulations anyway. Friend of mine represented Estonia in EU. She told me the Norwegian diplomats where constantly stalking the hallways in Brussels trying to find out what was going on. She found it funny.

TLTR:
Britain is a core part of Europe and the west. Don't be nationalistic idiots excusing your faults with others, head up your own arse. Look at the fucking map and think.
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #501 on: June 17, 2016, 01:49:34 pm »
+1
The current, bureaucratic entity of the EU is not the only way to have extensive European collaboration. Think very few have a problem with the latter but oppose the politics of the first. Some may argue it needs to be reformed from within, others that it takes rebuilding from scratch.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #502 on: June 17, 2016, 02:42:34 pm »
+1
The current, bureaucratic entity of the EU is not the only way to have extensive European collaboration. Think very few have a problem with the latter but oppose the politics of the first. Some may argue it needs to be reformed from within, others that it takes rebuilding from scratch.

I'm sorry, but this is the irony. If you want an EU with more clout, more ability to take action faster. A so called less "bureaucratic" EU. The answer is less sovereignty for the member states. The reason things sometimes take a long time is simply 28 members having to agree on things!

I think the only way such a body can work, is to have a heavy emphasis on professional so called "bureaucrats" acting for their countries, rather than more directly elected politicians. Just like you don't elect your diplomats. It's a bit like how foreign policy is most often treated in a more serious and consistent manner than national politics. It doesn't mean its undemocratic. It's just one step removed from everyday party politics and headlines.

Besides, slow, stable progress, executed by professional diplomats representing their countries distanced from everyday party politics is much more preferable than the opposite. Party politics suffer from idealism and populism that would lead to pure insanity in such a big parliament.

The weakness of EU, like the weakness of any democracy is of course being slow. Just look at how quickly Putin was reacting to events in Ukraine, while the EU had no chance to keep up. That's only possible when democracy is sidestepped.

In any case perhaps the EU should invent an emergency commission just to deal with issues that require quick intervention. But then again I'm not a political scientist.
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Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #503 on: June 17, 2016, 02:55:56 pm »
-1
I'm sorry, but this is the irony. If you want an EU with more clout, more ability to take action faster. A so called less "bureaucratic" EU. The answer is less sovereignty for the member states. The reason things sometimes take a long time is simply 28 members having to agree on things!

I think the only way such a body can work, is to have a heavy emphasis on professional so called "bureaucrats" acting for their countries, rather than more directly elected politicians. Just like you don't elect your diplomats. It's a bit like how foreign policy is most often treated in a more serious and consistent manner than national politics. It doesn't mean its undemocratic. It's just one step removed from everyday party politics and headlines.

Besides, slow, stable progress, executed by professional diplomats representing their countries distanced from everyday party politics is much more preferable than the opposite. Party politics suffer from idealism and populism that would lead to pure insanity in such a big parliament.

The weakness of EU, like the weakness of any democracy is of course being slow. Just look at how quickly Putin was reacting to events in Ukraine, while the EU had no chance to keep up. That's only possible when democracy is sidestepped.

In any case perhaps the EU should invent an emergency commission just to deal with issues that require quick intervention. But then again I'm not a political scientist.


+1000

The EU, like democracy, is maybe shit, but its the best material available.
I'm sad that people are so stupid that they blame EU inefficiency and cry for sovereignty in the same breath. For me the most worthy end goal of the EU is to form the United States of Europe. For more sovereignty, a confederation of european states.
The current economical/migration crisis is as much a reason for unification, or division. Our national leaders need to show the way.

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #504 on: June 17, 2016, 03:19:18 pm »
0
Besides, slow, stable progress, executed by professional diplomats representing their countries distanced from everyday party politics is much more preferable than the opposite. Party politics suffer from idealism and populism that would lead to pure insanity in such a big parliament.
It carries with it the danger of being much less susceptible to public scrutiny and thus does not stand directly responsible to the checks and balances that lets bad, self-serving policies have consequences, politically and/or criminally. Far removed from the average voter there's is little loyalty to anyone save the strongest interest and lobby groups, usually within the industry and banking sectors.

It's also hard to believe that idealism wouldn't feature prominently like in all human affairs, just look at the fanatical, anti-National, anti-democratic neo-liberalism of the current Junkerean bureaucracy.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #505 on: June 17, 2016, 03:41:36 pm »
-1
It carries with it the danger of being much less susceptible to public scrutiny and thus does not stand directly responsible to the checks and balances that lets bad, self-serving policies have consequences, politically and/or criminally. Far removed from the average voter there's is little loyalty to anyone save the strongest interest and lobby groups, usually within the industry and banking sectors.

It's also hard to believe that idealism wouldn't feature prominently like in all human affairs, just look at the fanatical, anti-National, anti-democratic neo-liberalism of the current Junkerean bureaucracy.

First of all I believe the diplomats of your country are generally professional enough to serve the country. They don't decide stuff on their own, so much as represent their government, thus their power is limited. Their main job negotiating.

They are removed directly from the voter, but they ARE directly under the democratic governments their member nations. I hear all the time that Brussels is so corrupt, but I have yet to see these massive corruption cases surface. Yes, of course EU money for projects here and there sometimes fall into corruption, but that is because Europe itself is corrupt. Especially in the eastern parts. It's not Brussel that is corrupt, but national and local politicians in member states. The EU is actually doing great things on the anti-corruption front across Eastern Europe.

About Juncker, well that is the general trend in Europe atm. Even in Britain you have the Tories ruling, and Juncker is a product of that. Live with it.. When times are ready to change it will change too.
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #506 on: June 17, 2016, 04:09:17 pm »
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When I say corruption I mean legal corruption, as in lobbyism.

Offline naduril

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #507 on: June 17, 2016, 04:27:55 pm »
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/britain-first-the-far-right-group-with-a-massive-facebook-follow/

This kind of stuff brings more people to stay rather then to leave, I think. That is pity that some people are crazy enough to start shooting when their opinion is different. And it is 21 century and in Britain, not somewhere in Saudi.
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #508 on: June 17, 2016, 05:43:02 pm »
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Main problems with the current union include things such as:

A monetary union without shared economy policy, highly impractical and considered by many to be impossible.

The prospect of Turkish membership, effectively putting Europe's borders in the most unstable and militarized region in the world and flooding the EU with migrants whom are generally undesired by the local populations.

Flooding with EU with third world immigrants as part of some neo-liberal strategy against the working classes. I buy the argument that this would have happened under the national governments aswell but I think it is clear the development is much easier to turn at a national level, as we are seeing right now in many EU countries, my own included.

A bloated bureaucracy far from public scrutiny.

The lack of a coherent European identity necessary to have not only law abiding tax payers but the kind of dilligent, self-sacrificing citizens whom join in the social and political life (Chaplin's 'virtous citizen'), the kind of collective thinking that has made the European nation states great to begin with. As the EU has tried its best to erase national identities across the continent a new pan-European identity has not risen to take its place, instead popular national movements have been result.

Often completely different interests, economies, cultures, ethnicities, mindsets, histories and political landscapes of the member states. Which is why smaller regional unions would make more sense.


About Juncker, well that is the general trend in Europe atm. Even in Britain you have the Tories ruling, and Juncker is a product of that. Live with it.. When times are ready to change it will change too.
The problem is we can't really wait and see when it changes because these developments, and I'm talking mass-immigration here specifically, are not comparable to the occasional slip in domestic politics; the citizens of these countries, new aswell as old, have to live with the consequences for who knows how long into the future, these people are not going away and the inevitable results of ethnic friction are well-documented, we are talking immigration (in many cases practical colonization) from the third world on a scale never seen before in Europe, to the point where an actual population replacement is taking place, like in the UK where migration has been the main engine of population growth since the 90s.

From what I can see, Durkheimian sociologists and social psychologists like Jonathan Haidt are on to something when they talk about humans working best in smaller in-groups where people are similar and share similar values and then to work with others through alliance systems and economic cooperation. To me something like the United States with all the violence, identity politics and cultural battles (and the political correctness that naturally follows from this) would be a most unfortunate future for Europe.



Offline Osiris

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #509 on: June 17, 2016, 07:55:31 pm »
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+1000

The EU, like democracy, is maybe shit, but its the best material available.
I'm sad that people are so stupid that they blame EU inefficiency and cry for sovereignty in the same breath. For me the most worthy end goal of the EU is to form the United States of Europe. For more sovereignty, a confederation of european states.
The current economical/migration crisis is as much a reason for unification, or division. Our national leaders need to show the way.

A United States of Europe, god i hope i die long before that happens. Europe is not like the USA, we have different cultures and different languages and i hope it stays that way for a long long time, its what makes Europe special.

A massively reformed EU would be much more preferable to leaving and if the PM hadn't pretty much screwed the remain side with his new "deal" with the EU the polls might be different,


Then again they polled a labour coalition govt and got that totally wrong so i expect the vote to go somewhat like the Scottish referendum.

I personally don't think the EU will work when you have states join that are far less prosperous than the ones that are already inside, it damages the joining country with a massive brain drain and causes problems in the host country (its not about ethnicity or colour its an influx of people in an area that causes problems, If lots of brummies moved to liverpool you can bet they would be annoyed with brummies).
I am not against Unions (hello we are the UK) between similar cultures and languages but larger scale ones wont work with such a diversity of nations.

The EU needs to decide what it wants, its torn between those who want a trade bloc and those who want a federal states, it cant satisfy all so it needs to pick one and let the others stay on the outside
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