Leave or stay in the EU?

[Oberyn]

Sorry I was just struck by the retarded arrogant narcissism of some my old friendgy limey cunt publically crying about how the awful world did not care about how they suffered under the awful IRA attacks, while being of course completely ignorant and dismissive of anyone else's history. How many people here know about the IRA? How many people know or care about the victims of muslim terrorism before 9/11? I'm sure islamophobia must be the culprit, somehow. The media's "focus" on muslims is nothing to do with the massive global impact of muslim terrorism as opposed to the pissant localized pissing contest limited to a corner of Ireland and London. Fucking stupid cunt.

[Osiris]

I didnt say it was rosey in the 80s just that it isn't much better today  I know all about the IRA and the miners.

Islamic terrorism is worse imo because I can see no Demonstable way to end it like the agreements in Ireland and the fear factor seems much higher (which is the point of it) even if it is the papers doing it has a lot of impact. I think a Paris style attack frightens more than ira bombs.


It would be interesting to see how much damage was done by the ira and the Islamic threats in terms of economic impact (I'm not sure how big the London one was economically)

The miners riots well that's a touchy subject depending on where you live in the country and if you like or detest Thatcher. 

It is also very difficult to teach recent history in schools because it is mostly just opinions bias and political spin for the first few decades after.

I do agree the facts should be covered and things like hills brough should be taught




Edit it's also fking hard trying to do this via phone so my points might not come across how I intend 

[Tibes]

The whole ordeal of terrorism is irrelevant to this thread. In majority of the case, not even the biggest rightwingers claim that the issue with immigration is increased terrorism. Because the scale of these attacks is so tiny and they happen so rarely. There is atleast 50 times larger chance of getting stabbed in the street by some random guy, than fall to a victim of a terrorist attack.

[Osiris]

Indeed i didn't mean to waylay the conversation

What I was trying to say (poorly I must admit, I blame the phone)  Is that to me most decades are pretty much the same, some are especially shit like the 30s-40s but most are pretty much the same, You have cultural movements and "crises" for each decade. I was more trying to point out to Molly that those things dont make the 80s worse than say the 00s. Sure riots might be worse in the 80s but the wars were bigger in the 00s, It all evens out to me.

Back to the topic at hand I will vote leave because I frankly don't want to be a part of a Federal Europe. That seems to be the goal of what was once a free trade zone and maybe some want it. The UK is pretty heavily against any closer union and is pretty much a thorn in the side of most grand EU plans which is why i think it would be best for both if we left. The EU can move on to its grander ideas if thats what the people wish and the UK can try to be what it has always wanted to be, world traders.

For the life of me I cant understand why TTIP hasnt been brought into the debate because parts of that look scary as hell



ps we all know the 90s were the best and 90s kids are awesome right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8BobmZglOk

[Leesin]

Agreed, this stemmed entirely from a 'my country was better when I was too young to read the news' tangent.

You don't need to be able to read the news to experience your country socially and culturally, which was my argument, you keep banging on about major events, terrorism and strikes, they weren't my argument, Molly brought those things up, I just merely compared them to all of the shit that has happened since then as he seems to think our recent events have been minor, when they haven't.

 I didn't just magically forget what it was like growing up where I live, it was a lot better than then it is now for kids, I feel bad that my children that they will have to grow up in the same town as me. The town is a lot more of a shit hole compared to when I was a kid, with many people fighting for basic housing, the violent crime rate is well above the average, just outside of London, it's like that for a lot of the nearby towns and far worse in London itself. Strangely enough it's also far more "multi cultural" with PC bullshit ruining the majority of aspects in life, especially work places. There is also little guidance for the increasing amount of vulnerable off the rails teenagers who end up stabbing someone, getting stabbed or getting too deep into heavy drugs.

 Funding is lacking everywhere yet somehow we can afford to save the world and give away jobs based on PC regulations because we must employ an ex amount of non british, non whites, religious and cripples, instead of just employing those best suited, qualified and experienced for the job regardless of race, nationality and religion. You've got to be living in a fucking hole if you think this country isn't going down the shitter, you're the type of leftie fuck who will wonder where our culture went and what being a great Nation actually meant, then blame it on someone else.

[Butan]

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I didnt know you were a character in DC Oberyn

[Overdriven]

For the life of me I cant understand why TTIP hasnt been brought into the debate because parts of that look scary as hell

I see it mentioned on some comments on various discussions. But it's odd how quiet the media is about TTIP. It honestly makes me suspicious they've all been told to keep quiet. I can't recall a single article ever going in depth about it from any major news source which is absurd considering the implications.

[Molly]

Greenpeace Germany released a copy of the contract 2-3 weeks ago.

[Butan]

The American-European Trade Pact?

Whats scary about it? (in the sense that I've never heard it in details  ) and how could it influence leaving or staying in the EU? (its that bad? )

[Overdriven]

Hey look I found an article from the Independent, an actual major news source. About the only one out there but it lists some basic points:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

[Kafein]

The TTIP is pretty much horrendous all around. Important product regulations in medicine and food for health concerns might become illegal. IP law would basically become the US IP law also known as the worst on the planet. That's two of the main contention points, but there's no shortage of those. Not the least of which the absolutely ridiculous obscurity in which the process is taking place. In other words it's not a trade pact it's a Let-Our-Worst-Corporations-Destroy-Other-Countries-Pact.

Belgian mainstream media regularly and casually report on the fact that a huge majority of the Belgian communes are opposed to the treaty, seemingly ignoring all the other levels of power for some reason. But as I understand things, coverage in other countries isn't any better.

[Molly]

Berlin had a demonstration of 250k people against TTIP.

Nobody heard about that?

No typo, it were actual 250k people.

Alas, no politician cared, ofc. Why would they?

[Rhekimos]

Hey look I found an article from the Independent, an actual major news source. About the only one out there but it lists some basic points:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

That's not exactly an article from The Independent, but an opinion piece by a third party. It's more like a personal blog. Many news sites also host these blog type things like the Wall Street Journal.

That being said, the TTIP has some quite worrying terms concerning patents and the investor protection lawsuit system where basically nations must submit to a court if someone's investment goes belly up and compensate them.

And whether or not the TTIP is a good argument for getting out the EU; If the UK leaves the single market and is desperate for trade deals, do you think that's a strong position to negotiate from? If the TTIP is that required for competitiveness, it's probably the TTIP Extreme instead of whatever the EU manages to bargain for.
Obama said that the UK would be "at the back of the queue" for a new trade deal with the US. They could even make it a prerequisite. Though probably something subtler, but in that spirit.

[Angantyr]

Concerning some of the historically significant changes Leesin is talking about in his lifetime.

The chief statistician yesterday identified a rise in immigration as the most significant social change in Britain of recent years.
Len Cook, the former head of New Zealand's statistical service who took over as the UK national statistician in July, said population patterns through most of the 20th century had changed dramatically during the 1990s as migration became the main engine of population growth

Mr Cook said "homegrown" population increases - the surplus of births over deaths - hugely exceeded net migration into the UK from 1900 to 1990. Indeed for much of the century there was a net outflow of people. But between 1991 and 1999 net immigration averaged 104,000 a year, compared with a homegrown population rise averaging 107,000.

Mr Cook said the change was particularly stark in the closing years of the century, when migration became the predominant demographic influence. Immigration overtook natural population growth in England and Wales in 1994-95. By 1998-99 net inward migration increased to 194,000, while natural population growth fell to 72,000. "This amounts to a huge shift in the importance of immigration to changes in the British population, with consequences for ethnic mix and age structure," he said.

(source http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jan/25/race.world)

About 70% of the population increase between the 2001 and 2011 censuses was due to foreign-born immigration. 7.5 million people (11.9 percent of the population at the time) were born abroad, although the census gives no indication of their immigration status or intended length of stay.[2]

(source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom)

[Oberyn]

I didnt know you were a character in DC Oberyn

Apparently they retconned Captain America as a secret Hydra chocolate chip cookie supporter, so I'm in good company. These bundle of stickss couldn't get more hamfisted with their shit-tier propaganda. Nice to see the WW2 era tradition of blatantly obvious political messages by inept "writers" in comic books survives, if somewhat on the opposite end this time.