Leave or stay in the EU?

[Angantyr]

I probably wrote about 5 times by now that I believe that 'my' current legal system is perfectly capable in dealing with all the aforementioned problems and this is the way a proper democracy is supposed to handle it.
Anyone breaks the law? Arrest and punish him/her, according to the law. No matter their stand, race, religion or 'tribe'.
If that makes me an idealist, okay.

Have there been mistakes in the recent past? Yes, of course. Hundreds of thousand refugees appeared at the border and had to been taken care of somehow. Shitty situation? Yes, of course. And completely new to the government, be it regional, federal or national. Nobody was prepared for the shear masses and mistakes were made.

But Molly, my entire post was an attempt at nuance to the argument of yours I quoted, nothing more. Did you read the Der Spiegel link I posted? I can really recommend it, it showcases the reasoning of Saxon national-conservatism.

A quote (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/saxony-xenophobia-under-the-microscope-a-1079062.html);

The societal modernization that took place in West Germany following the student revolts at the end of the 1960s is seen by broad swaths of Saxon's educated middle class as a fundamental evil. Modern and conflict-prone Germany has never been well received in Saxony, and not just in the narrow valleys of the Erzgebirge Mountains. Even members of the educated middle class in Dresden harbor yearnings for yesteryear. Such desires survived East Germany by way of the house concerts and poetry readings held in private salons -- and they informed the historically accurate rebuilding of Dresden.

I personally know a lot of people who have income security but object to immigration from Arab and African countries out of cultural, and yes national, interest. And out of experience. Nothing exotic or far-fetched; people rightly fear for their security and national identity. It's not like we don't have any data on the subject. Even governments across Europe are realizing, based on the last 30 years of immigration experiments what is the success rate of different nationalities and integration into western society. For example, Palestinians, Somalis, North Africans are some of the hardest to integrate for whatever reasons, and they are often involved in violent crime. While Vietnamese, Iranians and Bosnians generally have a pretty good track record.

The German press codex had a pass which said:"The nationality of a criminal is not supposed to be mentioned if it is not important to the facts reported."

I think many would disagree with various media outlets' impression of when it was important to the facts reported or not. Also, it has been admitted by people of authority both in Sweden and Germany that self-censorship has taken place so as not to let 'incidents' play into the hands of certain political parties, essentially prioritizing politics more than the rights of the victims.

The history of the press codex is interesting, though, however unappealing.

[Butan]

For example, Palestinians, Somalis, North Africans are some of the hardest to integrate for whatever reasons, and they are often involved in violent crime. Turks don't exactly have a good track record, either, which may surprise some, but what I hear from western Turks actually living in Turkey we get many of their undesirables. Vietnamese people, Iranians and Bosnians generally have a pretty good track record.

source needed


Whether you're right or wrong, the Law is uniform and not origin-dependent.
If you're wrong, and the matter is much more complex than "X come from Y, therefore Z"; whenever X does crime, jail.
If you're right, and the matter is as simple as "X come from Y, therefore Z"; whenever X does crime, jail.

The only solid argument used by xenophobe to justify why immigration is bad is crime... Even then the matter of why the law isnt enough to deal with it baffles me. A fake refugee that rapes someone isnt going to jail maybe? And a homegrown boy raping someone else will 100% of the time?
Then there is the "culture" and "national identity" arguments... I remember having asked you and others what exactly is that, and all the answers were always complete bullshit. Culture and national identity arent fixed, they evolve, and the fear of a Caliphate suddenly sprouting out of Europe with muslims rapidly out-breeding the natives is completely wacko.


The kind of people that argue like you are extremely pragmatic and always want the mass media to learn the bitter truth.
The bitter truth might be that your origin are deeply decreasing or increasing your acclimatation to western society (ignoring all individuality), but there is even more bitter truths out there. Like that you cant stop people from trying to come to Europe even with walls and 0 immigration legally allowed.

Look at how badly besieged are the palestinians, they still manage to break in and out. How? Because humans are very resourceful.


Would be much more pragmatic to change the laws to be able to deal with reality, instead of trying to prove that races matter and that we should all fear them.
Of course I'm not saying that origin-dependent crime truths need not be spoken 

[Angantyr]

source needed

I've posted a lot of sources last few months, but take a look at the footnotes here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

The only solid argument used by xenophobe to justify why immigration is bad is crime... Even then the matter of why the law isnt enough to deal with it baffles me. A fake refugee that rapes someone isnt going to jail maybe? And a homegrown boy raping someone else will 100% of the time?

Because you want to avoid the rape to begin with and the fact is that some immigrants have a much higher chance of perpetrating rape than a native Swede for example. I don't think your logic would be much appreciated by any of the New Year's Eve rape victims or their families or boyfriends.

[Angantyr]

Heskey, if you'd bothered more than a casual glance and actually read some of the studies you would know that many studies correlate for social background, age and gender. Otherwise the numbers would be much higher.

Are you seriously doubting that people from certain parts of the third world are on average more crime-prone? You know IQ are lower in certain parts of the world aswell, right?

And I'm not arguing it has anything to do with genetics as your strawman suggests, but it certainly has do with what kind of society you come from.


Take a look at this standardized (taking social background, age and gender into account) study from the Danish government, which I've posted a few times, really expected anyone who partook in this discussion to at least having looked at it: http://www.altinget.dk/artikel/hoejere-kriminalitetsrate-hos-muslimske-grupper

[Angantyr]

The kind of people that argue like you are extremely pragmatic and always want the mass media to learn the bitter truth.
The bitter truth might be that your origin are deeply decreasing or increasing your acclimatation to western society (ignoring all individuality), but there is even more bitter truths out there. Like that you cant stop people from trying to come to Europe even with walls and 0 immigration legally allowed.

Look at how badly besieged are the palestinians, they still manage to break in and out. How? Because humans are very resourceful.

Yes, Europe is in a precarious position because of its geography, but what our fleets cannot intercept in the Mediterranean can be discouraged to come by way of less inviting asylum legislation and less 'everyone welcome' rhetoric by multi-culti fanatics such as current Swedish and German leadership. Denmark has seen a marked drop in asylum seekers after our government made it less economically feasible.

Then there is the "culture" and "national identity" arguments... I remember having asked you and others what exactly is that, and all the answers were always complete bullshit. Culture and national identity arent fixed, they evolve, and the fear of a Caliphate suddenly sprouting out of Europe with muslims rapidly out-breeding the natives is completely wacko.

On the contrary I actually remember making a list of things that were genuinely 'western', and definitely worth preserving. I've also posted a long list of surveys from across Europe that demonstrates an alarmingly large group of people with immigrant background having a very different view on many of these things the rest of us takes for granted.

[Tibes]

In the UK it's a little different. You know how you can tell if the rapist/murderer is white? The news doesn't mention their ethnicity. The ethnicity of the culprit it's only 'news-worthy' if they're an evil foreigner.

'White Atheist stabs man in London Underground' - really sells papers and makes international news doesn't it?

Yeah. I suppose you are correct about that. But how do you explain the new year situation in Köln? An overstatement? One way or the other id still prefer to give a culture that allows 50 year old dudes, fucking and marrying 13 year old girls or extreme violent acts against certain groups of people, specially jews, a pass. I dont think its superracist and inhumane as hell to feel even a little bit cautious. Does it?

[Angantyr]

Why would you mention it was a white guy doing a crime in a predominantly white country? An argument for mentioning the ethnic background of someone is to highlight very real immigration problems so you can perhaps try to fix them instead of just burying them like they do in Sweden (and see how well that is working out for them).

[Kafein]

I don't find any of your views truly genuine. Views supported by Oberyn and Angantyr are clearly reactionary, while view of the "moderate" Europeans such as Molly, Paul or Kafein seems like indoctrination placed upon them by their respective societies. There are however some people in this thread, who have broader experience and are capable of rationally looking at things from many different angles. Sadly, due to nature of your western EU country most of denizens of it aren't like that but split in aforementioned two groups, reactionaries and idealists. Nothing good old fashioned World War can't fix, you'll be all rational human beings right after we're done with it. In case you survive it

Ha, but by definition there is only ever one angle on a story which is rational. What kind of indoctrination am I subject to, apart from a lack thereof (which is essentially what Oberyn is unhappy about when he rants on Enlightenment society)? How idealistic do I sound when I say that 80% of humans are easily manipulated? I'm pretty sure none of the real "refugees welcome" kind of idealists would have such a paternalistic and ultimately cynical worldview. To them, the near absence of anti-immigration material in mainstream media isn't noticeable, they have a long way to go before attempting to theorize the causes of such an absence.

The line that differentiates Oberyn and me at least is that I'm an individualist and he's a collectivist. If anything by historical standards over the last few centuries, he's the idealist. We have radically different ideas of what society is supposed to be and the place of people inside it. I see nation-states as a cozy if completely inadequate structure of power in the face of modern globalized problems, he doesn't. Maybe he refuses to acknowledge the existence of those problems, maybe he thinks nation-states will be able to deal with them. I don't know because he never, ever actually confronted me on that topic.

[Angantyr]

Many modern sociologists accept that we can be individualists to some degree but that we are at the same time dependent on our collectives. Read some Jonathan Haidt, for example. Don't think anyone believes the nation state is the end state for the human species, but some kind of smaller collectives inside the greater are necessary, simply by reason of human in-group out-group psychology, even if we one day aspire to a 'one-world government' or whatever our communications technology makes possible.

From 'The British Dream: Successes and Failures of Post-war Immigration' by David Goodhardt:
'A nation state cannot just be a machine for providing individuals with rights and wealth, it needs some emotional ballast too. And the point of all these initiatives is to reinforce the idea of a 'citizen nation' - crossing class and ethnic boundaries - in which as many people as possible move beyond being 'mere' citizens who obey the law and pay their taxes to 'virtous' citizens (in Jonathan Chaplin's distinction) who join in the social and political life of the country, in however small a way. It also helps to transcend difference, in Jonathan Haidt's words, 'in a sea of similarities, shared goals and mutual interdependencies'.

[Osiris]

Its like Jean Claude Juncker actually wants the UK to leave the EU judging by the things he says :/ 

"The British people will be treated as “deserters” following a vote to leave the European Union, Jean-Claude Juncker has warned.

In his greatest intervention in the referendum contest, the President of the European Commission said that the UK would face “consequences” and be treated as a “third country” following a break with the EU."

"I'm sure the deserters will not be welcomed with open arms," Mr Juncker, a lifelong European federalist, told Le Monde.

Does he really think people will be swayed by being threatened by the EU president ^^ Its literally the opposite thing to what he should be saying if he wants to win voters. Its like saying "you cant do that" to someone who will then instantly try to do it..   

[Angantyr]

Lawyer's prattle.

[Armpit_Sweat]

Its like Jean Claude Juncker actually wants the UK to leave the EU judging by the things he says :/ 




Does he really think people will be swayed by being threatened by the EU president ^^ Its literally the opposite thing to what he should be saying if he wants to win voters. Its like saying "you cant do that" to someone who will then instantly try to do it..

Probably because EU is always way too soft, on every possible occasion. Germany, along with few other countries, keep taking it up the ass to keep the EU going. What other place In the world is as soft and toothless?..
Now wonder UK citizens are laughing when they hear about "consequences". I would too.

Not related to UK, but related to EU:
Few days ago, a notorious criminal, who has a criminal record as long as a roll of toilet paper, was in court to determin if he is to be "expelled" from Denmark. He is not a Danish citizen. He got the permission to stay. Pretty much every politician expressed a desire to make changes in Danish laws, to prevent this from happening again - but the leading lawyers are sceptical, since the EU laws regarding human right, or some other shit, overrule the local Danish lows in such cases, so changing local laws is a waste of time.

I don't know why such idiotic laws exist, I am a simple guy with no education. But I sure am not alone in my frustration, and this shit will change soon enough. I hope that EU prevails, and stops being a sort of an old and sweet grandma, that used to be something special back in the days, but who is not being taken seriously anymore, because of her alzheimers.

[Falka]

Probably because EU is always way too soft, on every possible occasion. Germany, along with few other countries, keep taking it up the ass to keep the EU going. What other place In the world is as soft and toothless?

Maybe that's the reason why EU is such a great place to live. I assume that Russia is nowhere near as soft and toothless as EU, so maybe you wanna get back to your homeland?

[Falka]

Probably because EU is always way too soft, on every possible occasion. Germany, along with few other countries, keep taking it up the ass to keep the EU going. What other place In the world is as soft and toothless?..
Now wonder UK citizens are laughing when they hear about "consequences". I would too.


I don't know why such idiotic laws exist, I am a simple guy with no education. But I sure am not alone in my frustration, and this shit will change soon enough. I hope that EU prevails, and stops being a sort of an old and sweet grandma, that used to be something special back in the days, but who is not being taken seriously anymore, because of her alzheimers.

You have to consider that Vietnamese moving to Poland are pretty smart: its no secret that Poland is relatively right wing and racist, so if you wanna emigrate there you quietly move in, quietly get a job, and quietly get on with life. You dont start shit or the backlash will be brutal. Germans need to get their shit together. England, Sweden, many other places also: These kids wont listen in school so they dont have an accurate picture of how Europeans are historically: we want to do our thing and not be fucked with. You throw your weight, we move a bit, but push too far and we fuck your shit up. No part of the world has surpassed the West.

We nuked Japan. We, the west, dropped 2 nuclear weapons on an enemy state. Noone else has done that. The house of Othman ran rampant over the Byzantine empire and the west barely did shit. But then they fucked up when they came into mainland Europe and thought it would be the same. It wasn't. We mounted the largest cavalry charge in all of recorded history and fucked them up.

I'm scared that these fucking scumbags will keep making our society worse, and we are gonna react the way we always do. With ultra violence. Historically we haven't been bested. Even Spain: under the Caliphates, Al-Andalus was a great place to live, but we couldn't let them keep it and even if it took 600 years we fucked them up and took it back.

I'm not defending violence, or promoting it, but we have to look at the history of the West: when we are pushed too far we are even polite enough to say: HERE is the line. You are warned, push once more and we WILL stop you. We fucking do it to each other also. Look at WWI: England was tired of Imperialist Germany. They didn't want Germany having Belgium: 1/ they were our allies and we had sworn to protect them. 2/ Germany having Belgium ports was a real threat to England. So England said: if you fuck with Belgium we WILL fuck you up. And Germany LOL'ed and marched thru Belgium into France. Less than a day passed before England declared war on Germany. In Europe we have a limit.

Im so sad that we have worked so hard in Europe. Say what you like about the EU but we have had the longest peace in Europe since EVER. We welcome others into our countries with open arms, give them houses and free education, and they cant even control their kids. Slowly we creep to the right wing again, because its the natural way to feel. Next thing you know these same immigrants who were happy to throw shit at reporters, act like they have their own rules and shit, will be the same ones crying for news cameras to come and see how they are being incarcerated in camps and treated like shit. But noone will come then, because why would you try to help people that have violently rejected you?

TL:DR

If they dont stop fucking around, it will be on them, historically we have fucked over everyone who wont cooperate and the reality of how well we defend ourselves in Europe will not be pleasant or pretty.

[Armpit_Sweat]

Maybe that's the reason why EU is such a great place to live. I assume that Russia is nowhere near as soft and toothless as EU, so maybe you wanna get back to your homeland?

That wasn't my reason to move to Denmark back when I was 17... I have a clean criminal record, I never took any support from the state, my longest unemployment time was 2 months in 15 years, etc. I didn't come here to cheat and misuse the local laws.
I know that I am a guest here, and I act accordingly.
Respect for each other, respect for the law, uncorrupted authorities - these are some of my top favorite things about Denmark. So no, I am not here because the criminal punishments are soft, not because I can do whatever I want without any serious consequences, or sit on my ass with 5 kids and live off state's child support money, or some other shit of that kind.

And when Greece or UK, or any other EU member threaten to leave if they don't get a special treatment - it annoys me. And there should be consequences, unpleasant consequences for breaking treaties and agreements. Just like there should be consequences for the individuals who do not respect the local laws, people or demand special treatment for no good reason.