Leave or stay in the EU?

[Paul]

To be fair, you have shown your fair share of moral superiority and arrogance toward these naïve cucks on this forum. And what's Molly supposed to engineer apart from drugs?

[Oberyn]

Naive cucks are the status quo, the "evil racists" are the ones who are so disenfranchised they are forced to vote for these parties. Maybe if their concerns hadn't been dismissed out of hand for decades we wouldn't be here today, but there you have it. And now that we are here, what is the response? More of the same. So again, keep it up. I'm sure it will work fantastically.

[Kafein]

Once again, you don't understand what I'm saying. A parental attitude would suppose genuine care, while in politics this is more of a cohabitation type of deal. I'm annoyed if my neighbor vomits on the carpet, not because he's making questionable life choices but because now there's vomit on the carpet. There is no moral superiority involved, and I wish there was an ivory tower. You can pretend everybody or even a majority of people have both the mental capacities and the mindset to make an informed political decision but that would be it, pretending. I don't know the lives and concerns of these people, I'm not them. Yet I also know that whatever their concerns might be, the chances that these concerns are legitimate are slim, the chances that they are actually taking appropriate actions to solve them are vanishingly small.

[Molly]

Oberyn gives his people too much credit which is again kinda funny.

Do you actually believe that the poor fear Islam, Muslims, mosques?
They don't really. They fear that the welfare will be less, that their job is on the line, that their living standard is declining even further...
They don't give a shit about their neighbours, their tribe.
If they had the money/income for it, they would be up and gone to a nice neighbourhood in an heartbeat!

You're naive if you believe that there is some kind of united movement for the preservation of the tribe.
Everyone is looking out for themselves, that's the 'ugly' truth.

And again you assume something about me that has no base whatsoever. Not my line of work defines my attitude but my background and upbringing does. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, on the contrary actually...
I just happen to be lucky with my dedicated and loving parents and my ever so slightly above average smarts and talents - as doubtful as this might seem to you *shrugs*

[Oberyn]

Travel the globe some, please. The entire planet and the whole of humanity is working on a much different angle than whatever fantasy you're operating under. Or failing that, just read some history. The insane, egotistical, narcissistic individualism of the modern western world you apparently think is universal is incredibly recent, and it's not going to last. You assume the west's wealth and prosperity is linked to this decades old perspective, and you assume the same level of material wealth is somehow going to lead other people on the planet towards the same ideological path. Haven't you been to East Asia? How can you possibly be so blind?

[Molly]

I do not think that individualism is universal. I think it is growing, still on the rise. In European countries, in my and the following generation.
You assume it is not going to last and I say it will even become bigger, especially due to crises like the financial collapse or currently with the refugees.
The collective mindset that our grandparents still had due to their way of education (not the 'amount', mind you) and upbringing is not nearly as embedded today as back then. Individualism is the new ideal for most young European parents for their kids. "...as long as he/she studies and can earn good money, it's okay." How is this widely spread new approach not self-centred?

I am not talking about Asia, neither about some kind of universal truth. I am talking about my limited view on the situations and developments in Europe as far as I can observe them.
Stop to assume what I assume. I am telling you right now how I see it.
Your probably disagree, as do I disagree with a lot what you write.

When I see people expressing their worries, it's not about the Nation or 'my people', it's about the one school their kids go to, their job, their payments for the house loan, their next holiday, their next new car... hardly worried about the 'greater good'.

...when some AfD politician stands on a podium in the streets of some East German city which is notorious for hunting black people through the streets at night, beating them to death, and he says things like "THIS CITY IS GERMAN - AND IT SHALL STAY GERMAN - FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS!" it sends shivers down my spine.
As a French with an obvious sense for history, you should have the same shivers, Oberyn.

(click to show/hide)

+1 for not calling me a cuck in that post!

[Grytviken]

Travel the globe some, please. The entire planet and the whole of humanity is working on a much different angle than whatever fantasy you're operating under.

get on our angle

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=959_1463656892

[Oberyn]

We're just gonna keep going in circles. You think the world is heading in one direction. I think it's headed in another. You think the refugee crisis is going to help. I think it's going to reinforce basic, primal instincts of tribalism that have been a human feature since the dawn of history and still are in the vast majority of the planet, because the millions of immigrants? They don't share your perspective. They're still on their "obsolete", dying forms of association, and they won't give it up for your dream. Why would they? They don't have any levers of shame to manipulate as has been done for europeans.

You clearly fear the shadows of you own past and your own people more than you fear the blatantly obvious dangers facing you today, and this is a typical modern german trait, part oblivious arrogance and part self-loathing. Remember this conversation when the next massive terrorist attack inevitably happens in Europe. Remember it as germans lie executed in the streets, victims of the very same tribalism you pretend is a dying force in the world. Maybe you and your ilk will just shrug their shoulders and tell each other that this is completely normal and not a threat at all. Don't expect the rest of your increasingly angry people to react the same way. Calling them racist, moronic children won't work anymore, if the rise of AfD and other nationalist parties throughout europe hasn't been enough of a wake-up call already.

[Grytviken]

We're just gonna keep going in circles. You think the world is heading in one direction. I think it's headed in another. You think the refugee crisis is going to help. I think it's going to reinforce basic, primal instincts of tribalism that have been a human feature since the dawn of history and still are in the vast majority of the planet, because the millions of immigrants? They don't share your perspective. They're still on their "obsolete", dying forms of association, and they won't give it up for your dream. Why would they? They don't have any levers of shame to manipulate as has been done for europeans.

You clearly fear the shadows of you own past and your own people more than you fear the blatantly obvious dangers facing you today, and this is a typical modern german trait, part oblivious arrogance and part self-loathing. Remember this conversation when the next massive terrorist attack inevitably happens in Europe. Remember it as germans lie executed in the streets, victims of the very same tribalism you pretend is a dying force in the world. Maybe you and your ilk will just shrug their shoulders and tell each other that this is completely normal and not a threat at all. Don't expect the rest of your increasingly angry people to react the same way. Calling them racist, moronic children won't work anymore, if the rise of AfD and other nationalist parties throughout europe hasn't been enough of a wake-up call already.

The Germans think the Muslims are their gorilla brother tribesmen. Just look back to ww1 and ww2.

[Molly]

We're just gonna keep going in circles. You think the world is heading in one direction. I think it's headed in another. You think the refugee crisis is going to help. I think it's going to reinforce basic, primal instincts of tribalism that have been a human feature since the dawn of history and still are in the vast majority of the planet, because the millions of immigrants? They don't share your perspective. They're still on their "obsolete", dying forms of association, and they won't give it up for your dream. Why would they? They don't have any levers of shame to manipulate as has been done for europeans.

You clearly fear the shadows of you own past and your own people more than you fear the blatantly obvious dangers facing you today, and this is a typical modern german trait, part oblivious arrogance and part self-loathing. Remember this conversation when the next massive terrorist attack inevitably happens in Europe. Remember it as germans lie executed in the streets, victims of the very same tribalism you pretend is a dying force in the world. Maybe you and your ilk will just shrug their shoulders and tell each other that this is completely normal and not a threat at all. Don't expect the rest of your increasingly angry people to react the same way. Calling them racist, moronic children won't work anymore, if the rise of AfD and other nationalist parties throughout europe hasn't been enough of a wake-up call already.

Indeed in circles we go. Once more:
I do not like the way my government, specificly Merkel, handled the refugees. I don't want any more to come to Germany. In my eyes all those teddy bear presenting, balloon holding people at the train stations were fucking idiots. I do not shrug at any terrorist act anywhere. Well, tbh, when some bomb goes off in Kabul or Bagdad, I do shrug since it's like once a week and it's numbing to some degree.
Neither do I feel shame about my life or my country. The history of my country made me not ashamed since I was not part of it, just somewhat sensitive to this area of extremism.

We had the NSU in Germany, randomly killing foreigners in the streets over the course of years. My personal, national experience of terrorism is that. Nazis killing people because of their Turkish/Greek surname. Some even had a German passport.

And honestly, I believe this whole deal with Nationalism becoming more popular will blow over in the next 5-8 years and the status quo will be re-established, no fucks given anymore. Which I don't see as a good thing, status quo is rarely a good thing. But people will forget, that is something we all excel in.

[Angantyr]

Do you actually believe that the poor fear Islam, Muslims, mosques?
They don't really. They fear that the welfare will be less, that their job is on the line, that their living standard is declining even further...
They don't give a shit about their neighbours, their tribe.
If they had the money/income for it, they would be up and gone to a nice neighbourhood in an heartbeat!

You're naive if you believe that there is some kind of united movement for the preservation of the tribe.
Everyone is looking out for themselves, that's the 'ugly' truth.

You don't believe anyone could disagree on a cultural, religious or political basis? Under threat of bodily harm, radicalization, islamization, terrorism, the slow deterioration of values, ethnic changes, diminishing social capital? Of course that would make you a psychic, but I can only say that it's generally well-established that these things matter to people.
You don't have to be a collectivist who sees every individual as a cell in the national body to believe that law and order and some semblance of civil society should be maintained, not just where you live but in the rest of the nation aswell. People are not all as shallow and materialistic as you make them out to be, values matter as does the future of our children and our children's children and the kind of society we live in. It's exactly multi-culturalism that drives the kind of individualism you are referring to (as demonstrated most recently by the sociologist Robert Putnam). And not only poor people vote for these type of parties, not by a long-shot. Somehow it bears mentioning still; these powers are mainly driven by a rejection of Islamism, which is entirely reasonable for anyone who knows anything about its values.

No one in their right minds would think it is in any way desirable to have no-go zones in one's country, like in the US, or women feeling (and being) unsafe in the night life, or have hundreds of thousands of non-educated, hostile people on welfare living in parralel societies in ghettos, like in the US (again). Why anyone would try to mimic the old colony across the pond socially is beyond reason. And yet, these are the rotten fruits of uncontrolled mass-immigration, I've posted plenty of statistical data on this in the last few months. We can think with our hearts and ignore it and hope it will all just go away or we can think with our brains like rational westerners.


A Der Spiegel piece on some of the things that drives people in Saxony, pretty interesting if you can look past the tiresome Spiegel multi-culti propaganda (a national perspective is bad, no matter what kind, national identity can't be culturally European, rational rejection of an ideology is 'xenophobia' etc): http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/saxony-xenophobia-under-the-microscope-a-1079062.html

[Leshma]

I don't find any of your views truly genuine. Views supported by Oberyn and Angantyr are clearly reactionary, while view of the "moderate" Europeans such as Molly, Paul or Kafein seems like indoctrination placed upon them by their respective societies. There are however some people in this thread, who have broader experience and are capable of rationally looking at things from many different angles. Sadly, due to nature of your western EU country most of denizens of it aren't like that but split in aforementioned two groups, reactionaries and idealists. Nothing good old fashioned World War can't fix, you'll be all rational human beings right after we're done with it. In case you survive it

[Molly]

(click to show/hide)

You don't believe anyone could disagree on a cultural, religious or political basis? Under threat of bodily harm, radicalization, islamization, terrorism, the slow deterioration of values, ethnic changes, diminishing social capital? Of course that would make you a psychic, but I can only say that it's generally well-established that these things matter to people.
You don't have to be a collectivist who sees every individual as a cell in the national body to believe that law and order and some semblance of civil society should be maintained, not just where you live but in the rest of the nation aswell. People are not all as shallow and materialistic as you make them out to be, values matter as does the future of our children and our children's children and the kind of society we live in. It's exactly multi-culturalism that drives the kind of individualism you are referring to (as demonstrated most recently by the sociologist Robert Putnam). And not only poor people vote for these type of parties, not by a long-shot. Somehow it bears mentioning still; these powers are mainly driven by a rejection of Islamism, which is entirely reasonable for anyone who knows anything about its values.

No one in their right minds would think it is in any way desirable to have no-go zones in one's country, like in the US, or women feeling (and being) unsafe in the night life, or have hundreds of thousands of non-educated, hostile people on welfare living in parralel societies in ghettos, like in the US (again). Why anyone would try to mimic the old colony across the pond socially is beyond reason. And yet, these are the rotten fruits of uncontrolled mass-immigration, I've posted plenty of statistical data on this in the last few months. We can think with our hearts and ignore it and hope it will all just go away or we can think with our brains like rational westerners.


A Der Spiegel piece on some of the things that drives people in Saxony, pretty interesting if you can look past the tiresome Spiegel multi-culti propaganda (a national perspective is bad, no matter what kind, national identity can't be culturally European, rational rejection of an ideology is 'xenophobia' etc): http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/saxony-xenophobia-under-the-microscope-a-1079062.html

I probably wrote about 5 times by now that I believe that 'my' current legal system is perfectly capable in dealing with all the aforementioned problems and this is the way a proper democracy is supposed to handle it.
Anyone breaks the law? Arrest and punish him/her, according to the law. No matter their stand, race, religion or 'tribe'.
If that makes me an idealist, okay.

Have there been mistakes in the recent past? Yes, of course. Hundreds of thousand refugees appeared at the border and had to been taken care of somehow. Shitty situation? Yes, of course. And completely new to the government, be it regional, federal or national. Nobody was prepared for the shear masses and mistakes were made.

For example:
Lots of you complained about mass-media not reporting about refugee-crimes. That's actually not entirely true. Most were reported but the press didn't mention the nationality. And guess what, there actually was a simple reason for it which nobody cared to mention when it didn't fit the narrative.
The German press codex had a pass which said:"The nationality of a criminal is not supposed to be mentioned if it is not important to the facts reported." This pass is from 1960 or something to keep afro-american soldiers save from stereotypes when somebody black committed a crime back then. They wanted to avoid people going all "Look at the damn friend raping our women!" due to resentments running very deep in people due to all the race-talk in the 3rd Reich. Most Germans back then had never seen a black man up close.

So, what happened? Journalists actually stuck to the codex and this commonly known pass when refugees committed crimes. People went crazy on facebook and twitter:"Look, they don't report that it actually was an Afghan who stole from the supermarket! Mainstream media is bought by the government, derp!"
For quite a while now, the pass is removed from the press codex... and now people start to complain:"Look at the damn Syrian raping our women!"
And you're still surprised that I think that most people are fucking stupid?

[Leshma]

You're fine scholar, Sir Heskey of Bolton. It is a real pity you don't have honorary feather in order to prove your status

[Xant]

A real zinger, that one.