Leave or stay in the EU?

[Butan]

Don't you understand, it's to the population's benefit that foreigners come in and do manual labour for cents on the dollar, driving down wages is excellent for the oligarchy, and doesn't stifle technological innovation at all. And the people who ultimately pay for it, well, who cares, what attachment could one possibly have to this growling mass of nameless humanity? They are no more special or important than any other human being, anywhere on the planet. What's important is that our aristocracy prospers.

Dayum, you are very skilled at stacking wrong arguments together and making it right!



Sorry Angantyr, you look like you have a reasonable mind but your whole thesis is based on the principle that culture and trade mapmode are superposed and fixed.
Trade opportunities is highly fluid, culture too but less so, and more often than not they do not co-exist at the same time in the same place, so trying to make a "nordic union" or whatever would only cater to the populists and xenophobes and make 0 fucking political/trade sense.

[Angantyr]

Fortunately no one is proposing only trading within the unions.

But something like a Western or Northwestern European union have been an economic advantage for hundreds of years, and particularly so since the industrial revolution.

It has also been realized since about the Kalmar Union and the United Kingdoms of Denmark-Norway that a Nordic union makes fiscal sense (also in recent studies, think the latest one I saw was by a Swedish analyst from 2011), besides the obvious advantages of cultural attunement our industries have supplemented each other very well through most our history. Denmark as historical agricultural and shipping nation, Norway as shipping and raw ressources, Sweden as manpower and raw ressources. In the union times of Denmark and Norway materials flowed from Norway into Denmark where they went into industry and manufacture to the benefit of both nations, and the time of the twin kingdoms are generally regarded as a major practical success by historians. In the modern market these are still our main areas of commercial interest, though they have been spiced up with extensive knowledge-based economies (like precision engineering in Denmark and IT in Sweden) which goes well hand in hand, supranationally.

One of the main reasons we don't have a union anymore, Danish and Swedish power struggles aside, is because of European mainland politics, the major powers always saw it is a goal to keep Scandinavia divided, a Nordic Union would be competition. The Danish state was kept separate to offer free access to the Baltic, and a neutral Sweden as a sort of buffer state between Russia and the West. Denmark and Sweden have for centuries had different foreign policy concerns, with different giants on their doorsteps.

However compatible, I think I would be in favour of the Nordic countries teaming up with the rest of Northwestern Europe.

[Molly]

I absolutely couldn't give less of a shit how they get to their conclusions, if it's because they are vicious racists or their imaginary friend told them to or they had a vision while on peyote, or if they actually studied and followed and understand what is happening. What matters is that their conclusions are right. It brings them no benefits and only negative consequences. I know this is unconscionable to you, since virtue signaling is 99% of your ideology. Maybe that's why the "bottom" of society is getting tired of the contempt and blatant loathing the "superior" part of society has been developping at their expense and for the benefit of foreigners. They couldn't possibly have any valid reasons, the dirty white trash, they're just not as evolved as you, I suppose?

A valid reason to vote for a party who bashes the rights and social security of the low-income working force more than any other party in our political landscape?
To be fair, the party program was published only after they got voted into the regional parliaments.
But yea, I see your point. They are the smart and good guys as long as they are walking down your prefered path. Fuck the rest.

You're a funny person.

I dare you to read up on the German AfD and then come back seriously telling me that it makes sense to vote for them when your life is build on low income work and/or welfare.

[Oberyn]

And you're a dumb fucking traitorous cuck, not to mention a massive fucking hypocrite. Yeah I'm sure you're sooo concerned with the evil "racists". So concerned with the plight of your countrymen on the "bottom". You just want what's best for them! And the relentless tide of colonizers too, of course. Maybe eventually you'll get past your naive child-like idealism and accept that these things are mutually exclusive. Because it isn't "superior" people like you who then have to live alongside them. It's nothing more than a hypothetical moral fable for you, with a prepackaged answer. You'll avoid the reality of it as much as possible.   

And yes, indeed, fuck the rest. I care more about my "tribe" than other people. So uncouth, I know, so barbaric, stuck in "obsolete" forms of social contracts. So obsolete that it is present in every single other culture on the planet, almost as if there was some sort of collective benefit to it. Don't these barbarians see how superior our nu-men are? How many benefits and advantages subborning our collective identities to some globalist utopian dream has brought our people (who don't exist and shouldn't even identify as such)? Clearly they just need to be educated properly.

[Tibes]

Oh come now Oberyn. The far right populists have got the be the biggest scum of the earth, in generally every country. Dont tell me you are actually dumb and agressive enough to support them just because they are anti-immigration? Even their solutions in that are generally utterly retarded. Not to mention their solutions for anything else.

[Oberyn]

And yet ultimately I believe they are less dangerous than the well-intentioned idealists. I didn't always, it took a lot of convincing by plain old reality, and all signs point to it getting worse if the status quo, this sleep-walking apathy, this passive acceptance of massive, far-reaching decisions that will have negative consequences for decades if not centuries to come, is maintained. 

[Paul]

The first sign of the decay is excessive use of commata.

[karasu]

Why, oh why, would someone, even say that.


On topic. Behind all the hate posts a lot has been made quite obvious. It's a lose lose situation whatever side you decide to support. There's no going with the lesser evil on this subject, it's all fucked to hell and back. I hope when the nukes go out, they all go at the same time.

[Butan]

Fortunately no one is proposing only trading within the unions.

But something like a Western or Northwestern European union have been an economic advantage for hundreds of years, and particularly so since the industrial revolution.

It has also been realized since about the Kalmar Union and the United Kingdoms of Denmark-Norway that a Nordic union makes fiscal sense (also in recent studies, think the latest one I saw was by a Swedish analyst from 2011), besides the obvious advantages of cultural attunement our industries have supplemented each other very well through most our history. Denmark as historical agricultural and shipping nation, Norway as shipping and raw ressources, Sweden as manpower and raw ressources. In the union times of Denmark and Norway materials flowed from Norway into Denmark where they went into industry and manufacture to the benefit of both nations, and the time of the twin kingdoms are generally regarded as a major practical success by historians. In the modern market these are still our main areas of commercial interest, though they have been spiced up with extensive knowledge-based economies (like precision engineering in Denmark and IT in Sweden) which goes well hand in hand, supranationally.

One of the main reasons we don't have a union anymore, Danish and Swedish power struggles aside, is because of European mainland politics, the major powers always saw it is a goal to keep Scandinavia divided, a Nordic Union would be competition. The Danish state was kept separate to offer free access to the Baltic, and a neutral Sweden as a sort of buffer state between Russia and the West. Denmark and Sweden have for centuries had different foreign policy concerns, with different giants on their doorsteps.

However compatible, I think I would be in favour of the Nordic countries teaming up with the rest of Northwestern Europe.

Sweden, Danemark and Norway can break free of the EU and create a local union.. why does it not happen if its so obvious?
The reasons you invoke to support that it would be a better idea (historical friendship, common culture, economical synergy) can be used to support a larger scheme, like the European Union... 
Thats why I dont adhere to your plan, because it is just rhetoric to justify creating a smaller union that would probably be more stable only due to populitistic reasoning, but would create no objective surplus of income or political adherence (with the same administration efficiency).
This is for me, the biggest flaw in the independantist/isolationist view of the world: you can break free of everything on every scale (worldwide, continental, national, regional, local) at the end there is always place for discord and mutiny if one wants to create some.

The hard thing is working up not down. Then of course with the pressure put on the evil EU cucks by the """"""""""thoughtfull and always right bottom"""""""""" of society, maybe one day we will have no other option.

And yes, indeed, fuck the rest. I care more about my "tribe" than other people.

The tribe you refer to has disappeared, you and your fellow fourth reich tribesmen try to recreate it. Thats not exactly the same.
The tribe you refer to has moved on decades ago and started building mankind without even asking you if you're okay with that, and now you mad. We get it.

[Overdriven]

DC saying that leaving the EU could weaken us despite Nato and could bring on WW3. I almost think he secretly supports leaving and is trying to sabotage the remain campaign.

[Rhekimos]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296

[Molly]

DC saying that leaving the EU could weaken us despite Nato and could bring on WW3. I almost think he secretly supports leaving and is trying to sabotage the remain campaign.

That seems really obvious bullshit.

[Angantyr]

Oh come now Oberyn. The far right populists have got the be the biggest scum of the earth, in generally every country. Dont tell me you are actually dumb and agressive enough to support them just because they are anti-immigration? Even their solutions in that are generally utterly retarded. Not to mention their solutions for anything else.

This is the 'right-wing populist' politics of the Dansk Folkeparti/Danish People's Party. I don't think it looks so bad, and neither does a lot of the population here despite being 'Scandinavian socialists', the DPP is now our second largest party. They have a national perspective, are conservative about what is worth conserving while still being invested in the working classes unlike many other conservative parties around the globe.

Danish People's Party's stated goals are to protect the freedom and cultural heritage of the Danish people, including the family, the Monarchy and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark, to enforce a strict rule of law, to work against Denmark becoming a multi-cultural society by limiting immigration and promoting cultural assimilation of admitted immigrants, to maintain a strong welfare system for those in need, and to promote entrepreneurship and economic growth by strengthening education and encouraging people to work, and to protect the environment and natural resources.[35] In comparison to its predecessor, the Progress Party, the DPP focus more on immigration, while at the same time being more pragmatic on other topics.[36][37] While overall considered part of the radical right, its policies on most economic issues would rather place the party in the centre to centre-left.[36] The party's current leader, Kristian Thulesen Dahl, once declared DPP as an anti-Muslim party.[38]

The party holds that Denmark is not naturally a country of immigration. The party also does not accept a multi-ethnic transformation of Denmark,[55] and rejects multiculturalism.[34] Former party leader Pia Kjærsgaard stated she did "not want Denmark as a multiethnic, multicultural society",[56] and that a multiethnic Denmark would be a "national disaster".[57] The party seek to drastically reduce non-Western immigration, oppose islamisation, and favour cultural assimilation of immigrants. In 2010, the party proposed to put a complete stop to all immigration from non-Western countries, a continuation of a proposal the month before to toughen the 24-year rule.[58] They do, however, make the distinction between immigrants, those who intend to stay in Denmark permanently, and refugees, those that will only be in Denmark for the duration of the conflict, but ultimately intend to return home. The party has stated that it is more than happy to help those in need, but have a moral responsibility to the people of Denmark to keep Denmark Danish.[59]

A bonus:

(click to show/hide)

The changes to Denmark's immigration laws drew criticism from the former social democratic government of Sweden, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and the Council of Europe's human rights commissioner. In a response to the criticism from the Swedish government, Pia Kjærsgaard said: "If they want to turn Stockholm, Gothenburg or Malmö into a Scandinavian Beirut, with clan wars, honour killings and gang rapes, let them do it. We can always put a barrier on the Øresund Bridge."[48]

[Grytviken]

This is the 'right-wing populist' politics of the Dansk Folkeparti/Danish People's Party. I don't think it looks so bad, and neither does a lot of the population here despite being 'Scandinavian socialists', the DPP is now our second largest party. They have a national perspective, are conservative about what is worth conserving while still giving a fuck about the working classes unlike many other conservative parties around the globe.

A bonus:

(click to show/hide)

You all put too much faith in political parties when they simply don't work. A political party will always have it's own interests in mind over the well being of the state no matter the party or the leader. You will always get the extreme end of either ideology playing an endless game of tug of war and it's human nature to gravitate to one extent of the spectrum or the other. The US is a great example of the failure of this narrow minded party system which discourages independent thinking. There are only two political parties here and the two most hated candidates end up being nominated because leaders are no longer nominated based on merits but by a corrupt corporate and political system. Political parties can be bought out and will always be corrupt, non-party free independent leaders cannot.

[Angantyr]

Lol, hasn't it historically been people trying to leave Denmark for somewhere better?

They certainly have a rich history of migration. It's all cool when you want to migrate, but the moment people want to migrate to you it's all 'noooooooooooooooooope, Denmark has never been involved in the melding of cultures'.

Denmark sure likes other people accepting Danes into their country, and honours their maritime history of doing this. But let's not accept anyone into our country. Closed borders should work bother ways, if no one's allowed in then noone should be allowed out.

And yet Denmark is still second only to Sweden in Europe of how much money we spend on asylum seekers, per capita. And we've been enormously generous in accepting people from the third world here since the 90s. Danes emigrate to developed countries and I don't think anyone has a problem welcoming anyone from these same countries.


@Grytviken, I just posted their party program, never said I put much faith in them. I'm as cynical about the political establishment as anyone. They are less bad than many of their counterparts, though.