We Are Reverting

[Bariz]

Thank you for the detailed post. The idea of reverting archery is great and I'm looking forward to it.

[Nehvar]

I am a great turnrate nerf hater, but won't do anything before reaching a consensus. The topic is on the table though.

Holy shit, a glimmer of hope. 

I think I may have been in favor of the turn-rate nerf at one point due to all the helicopter long spears about but that didn't turn out as expected.  Never could get used to the post-nerf turning.  Really glad to hear that the topic of reversal is on the table.

[rufio]

FUCK YEAH ON THAT FUCKIN RANGED OP SHIT BEING REVERTED

[Yeldur]

I'm happy to hear this, I loved the way old Xbows worked and although the effort was made, it did destroy Xbows by keeping this patch, Raylin's work was well aimed but a bit misdirected in terms of actual balance, I could see the direction he was heading and some features were pretty damn good, but some features did destroy a class and others made classes ridiculously broken (ARHCUR OP111111)!!)!)!)!

[DKNhz]

Why don't you item balancers just play as an archer for a week or so, then you'll have a better understanding about all the comments which comes from other archers.

I always QQ when someone rekt the old way and the new patch comes alive to nerf the archers. But then i get used to it. The problem is, those patches against the ranged never ending so we have to adapt continuously. Which is shit. Getting killed by an archer may cause you to QQ, but being an archer is not that easy as you think. Players are not standing still training dummies, you need to calculate distance deviation, predict player movements and keep your surroundings checked in a second to keep your accuracy unbroken.

Missile speed is high, i agree with that. But the damage is not. I'm a 24/21, and that build is the most common. You need to put at least 5 arrows to someone's chest in order to get a kill with %80 chance, and most of the time one headshot isn't enough for a kill. Probably you're getting last hitted by an archer, or running around with your %25hp and QQ'ing when an arrow cause your dead.

As a one who chooses the peasant life very long time ago, i know how getting 1 hit feels. And you are not suffering from that, stop acting like one.

Anyway, the only problem is the missile speed, which makes things easier than before. Just rework it to a reasonable amount. But as i said before, do that while spending some time in archery for better understanding. I only play as an archer when i got bored from melee. But i do that like for 5 years, so i know what archery is, even if i'm not the 365/24/7 one.

I'm OK with any outcome, just make it stable this time please. Ranged patch/month is shit.

For the melee part, i couldn't agree more. DO EET. My only feedback is for one handed. I remember the times when one handed weapons was useless toy weapons. I don't think you mean that by reverting, but don't revert to that please. Keep the balance between one handed and other classes, somehow.

QGT

[matt2507]

I understand your position but you have to admit that current balance of ranged is broken.

I have never say the opposite. Actually, archery is not in it's final state. A patch was planned a month ago (missile speed reduction, dmg adjustments, overpowered tournament bow fixed, etc..) but he was never applied because of the updater troubles. What I mean is that the archery should have been fixed since one month but instead you get stuck on a broken archery during one month.

The actual archery state should have been for one week MAXIMUM. It was never intended to stay for one month or more.

Why don't you item balancers just play as an archer for a week or so, then you'll have a better understanding about all the comments which comes from other archers.

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(I admit that i'm probably one of the worst archer of crpg but at least I play this class 

[rufio]

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(2) Fast-paced combat makes the game interesting, but high levels and weapon speed stats only work with correct sweetspots in the animations. We observed that many players block based on expectation instead of observation, since the window of observation is short and the relative position of the enemy gives away the most likely attack direction. In other words, blocks tend to be preemptive instead of reactive, because as soon as you actually observe the attack direction, you are most likely already hit. New players do not have any expectation, which makes the learning curve unnecessarily steep for them. Experienced players will notice difficulties to keep up the pace in combats with weapons of slightly varying speed, such as MW Crusader Sword vs Iberian Mace. Go to duel and try it. The Crusader Sword seems infinitely faster due to the interaction between the slightly higher speed and the early sweetspots.

A possible remedy is going back to the pre Tydeus-era sweetspots, meaning that most attacks connect with the enemy's body later in the animation than right now. As a result, the animation is as fast as before, but it won't seem anymore like you have been hit way too early, before you had the time to get the block up, although you identified the attack direction correctly. The old sweetspots have the downside that some attacks tend to bounce off armor if you have the incorrect positioning and speed bonus. Take onehanded as an example: The leftswing and overhead stayed the same. The pre-Tydeus rightswing was a slow, strong and wide attack that received the highest damage if it connected late in the animation, like it still is in Native. Now, the rightswing is exactly like the leftswing; a fast, near instantly connecting hit. Same for the stab. The pre-Tydeus stab used to be higher damage (all stabbing swords had more damage than they have now), but it took time to build up. There was a short delay in preparing the stab and executing the part of the animation that connected with the enemy's body, meaning that stabs used to be best when they hit the target late. Now they are connecting instantly and never bouncing off the armor even though you are standing way too close to the enemy. The element of strategic timing (as well as the very rewarding holding of the left mouse button for higher damage) in the rightswing and stab have been overwritten and now underlie the same spam mechanics as the rest of the combat. Post-Tydeuus, you are trying to hit the enemy faster than he can react, instead of provoking him into reacting with the wrong block direction.

Since sweetspots and combat animations are a very controversial topic and subjective to bias, it is an absolute necessity to discuss this topic before implementing anything at all. What are your opinions on the topic? Is there anything that needs to be clarified before you want to answer?

just forget this, and remove ranged stagger, thx

[Yeldur]

I feel as if these would change little, at least some of them.

1. Strength is definitely the stronger attribute already, im sure most people base their builds off str just like me. Ive been a hardcore agility player for the entire mod up to like 2014/early 15, and i will probably not go back since agility builds now are basically "fun" builds, not necessarily good builds. Armor crutching being a huge part of the game now isnt based on it being accessible, its that its so fucking good. With a str build, some ironflesh and a loomed heavy armor you can take a ton of hits unless you get unlucky. Basically everyone is running around in heavy/plate armor these days, and quick pickoffs just arent a thing, if you are equal in numbers, but enemies have more armor, they probably push through because they simply tank spam and deal more damage, its hard to deal with. I'd suggest an overall melee damage increase, i think it could be fun to have some punishing hits, kind of like the old days before armor soak system was changed. Maybe it wont be as fun in the long run, dying super quickly might be annoying, but then again you would also kill most people quickly.

2. I active block, i dont expect block, if anything thats what i would assume new players do, panic block one direction after theyve swung and then attempt to correct it if its wrong. I wouldnt be against some changes to the speeds of the game, but it already feels slow many times tbh.

3. Dont revert the new 1h swings, they are actually buffs to the weapon that i feel is lower tier than pole/2h. Right swing isnt like a left swing, it has some potential for early hits but its definitely used for range mainly. Very good swing, i absolutely loved the update that added it. The stab is pretty damn good too, and it should be! The previous one was, afaik, clunky, short and just not that good. Id rather have a good stab than a bad one. Do not revert pls, 1h needs their animations, theyre already behind on damage.

If you want more glancing and more high power hits, then you need to change the armor soak values that were fiddled with way back when. But, as i remember, the change was needed and made the game much more enjoyable.

I feel it kinda necessary to say this, but STR is the stronger attribute for ARCHERY. AGI is significantly stronger in terms of an actual fight due to the fact they can swing faster than the speed of sound and pick you off before you even have a chance to do anything, not to mention an agiwhore quarterstaff build, I could pick people off ONLY pressing the left click button and they couldn't do anything to stop me, literally just mashing left click and pulling into my swings and I was unstoppable in a 1/2v1 fight situation. STR is definitely strong but I think in terms of actual fighting AGI is easily the stronger attribute.

[Mr.K.]

AGI is significantly stronger in terms of an actual fight due to the fact they can swing faster than the speed of sound and pick you off before you even have a chance to do anything, not to mention an agiwhore quarterstaff build, I could pick people off ONLY pressing the left click button and they couldn't do anything to stop me, literally just mashing left click and pulling into my swings and I was unstoppable in a 1/2v1 fight situation. STR is definitely strong but I think in terms of actual fighting AGI is easily the stronger attribute.

Go to EU3 and try your "just left click" tactic against any decent player and you'll see it won't work. Most good melee players in this mod use strength heavy builds and have been using them since forever. Spamwhore, Kiddius, GTX, Atze, Varadin etc are all 24str or more afaik. As Gravoth said, agi can be more fun as it allows you to do some crazy moves, but that doesn't make it better.

[Rhekimos]

24 str is the new 18 str though. The minimum requirement to be able to use all of your items.

[chesterotab]

If there was ever a time for unlocked pre-nerf Lance angles, it's now.

[Yeldur]

Go to EU3 and try your "just left click" tactic against any decent player and you'll see it won't work. Most good melee players in this mod use strength heavy builds and have been using them since forever. Spamwhore, Kiddius, GTX, Atze, Varadin etc are all 24str or more afaik. As Gravoth said, agi can be more fun as it allows you to do some crazy moves, but that doesn't make it better.

EU3 is irrelevant, we're talking about the actual game here, not a server designed for 1v1's, in the battle server, I can VERY easily 1/2v1 a person with an agiwhore quarter staff build, I've found the most easiest way to use it is to attack twice then block, then rinse and repeat. That way you're always guaranteed to get in many more hits than they ever can. (Obviously I mix this up a little, otherwise you're too predictable.)

Either way, I still think agi is the superior attribute.

[Blackbow]

- cool we lost the most productive dev, say good bye to new items.... you could have let him finish his test with his last patch who was rdy since 4 weeks...
- cool revert patch will absolutly change nothing on archery 30 str easy mode ftw thx tydeus again for fucked archery (str = range, missile speed, damage,accuracy. agi = speed rating)
- cool the come back of op xbower buildz who will take 90% of your life in one shoot and have 12 ath and their op 1h 0slot mace who knockdown on  first hit.

edit : and forgot to say le comeback of xbow reloading at bow speed...

M O D IS LE DEAD !

[Gravoth_iii]

EU3 is irrelevant, we're talking about the actual game here, not a server designed for 1v1's, in the battle server, I can VERY easily 1/2v1 a person with an agiwhore quarter staff build, I've found the most easiest way to use it is to attack twice then block, then rinse and repeat. That way you're always guaranteed to get in many more hits than they ever can. (Obviously I mix this up a little, otherwise you're too predictable.)

Either way, I still think agi is the superior attribute.

Agi has a smaller health pool, so they dont use armor as effective and they also die to ranged faster(big factor lately). One misplay punishes them far more than one from strenght, while the trade off is that they can chose their fights a bit more. But then if you are playing according to your team and have decent decision making, youll beneit far mor from playing a team based str build, rather than a solo oriented agility playstyle. Agi in teamplay works in small numbers, but not very well in big clashes. Str covers more areas of these things you want to win the rounds, and the things you need for survival.

You mention your 1v2 scenario, but as a str build you can sacrifice yourself using armor and hp to quickly take down enemies, this will snowball into you being in the 2v1 spot, or maybe even larger than that. Taking risks just aint as much of a thing with agi. This is how i see it anyways. Ive never felt as if agi made people swing super fast, not even faster than a balance build. Quarter staffs are fast by default, and the player makes them faster depending on footwork, so swing speed isnt the factor, its the footwork.

[Yeldur]

Agi has a smaller health pool, so they dont use armor as effective and they also die to ranged faster(big factor lately). One misplay punishes them far more than one from strenght, while the trade off is that they can chose their fights a bit more. But then if you are playing according to your team and have decent decision making, youll beneit far mor from playing a team based str build, rather than a solo oriented agility playstyle. Agi in teamplay works in small numbers, but not very well in big clashes. Str covers more areas of these things you want to win the rounds, and the things you need for survival.

You mention your 1v2 scenario, but as a str build you can sacrifice yourself using armor and hp to quickly take down enemies, this will snowball into you being in the 2v1 spot, or maybe even larger than that. Taking risks just aint as much of a thing with agi. This is how i see it anyways. Ive never felt as if agi made people swing super fast, not even faster than a balance build. Quarter staffs are fast by default, and the player makes them faster depending on footwork, so swing speed isnt the factor, its the footwork.

You do raise some good points, I think most people that use AGI based builds seem to get too involved in the team as opposed to using the good old Guerrilla tactics that do so well, whilst playing builds like this I do my best to find my way behind enemy lines and take out the archers before they can see me, and if they do, I run and hide for a bit. Strength can be overcome with Guerrilla tactics, that was proven clearly in Vietnam and in Afghanistan (USA vs Vietnam, Russia vs Mujahedeen) I do believe that the same sort of tactics can be applied here, albeit a rare playstyle, I've always found myself not sticking with my team, which is primarily why I die when I play STR builds, and why I get caught in 5v1's that I otherwise would be able to handle due to the massive amount of speedboost.

I do agree on the whole speed of swings element, but I do think they have an impact enough to make some weapons superior to others, the more WPF you have the more effect it has upon your speed to swing, however I've found you really need to chunk your AGI up if you want it to have a significant effect (3/41 staff wielder OP ) the main reason I enjoy playing AGI and believe it's strong is because so long as you're good at blocking and know the distance of weapons you can really effectively deal with multiple people at once (Dodging weapon swings and hitting back before they react)

I 100% agree that AGI doesn't work out well in large clashes due to them being hectic which does lead to many people being hit because of all the chaos, right now I would say the speed of running and things similar to it are more decided on armour than a build, I've built a 27/17 quarter staff build with really light armour and been extremely tanky and fast at the same time.

To summarise, I'd say that lots of people play AGI builds but they don't do it right to the point where it actually benefits the entire team as opposed to just themselves, if more agi players focused on something that STR players have trouble taking out (Archers, because they run away and are faster than STR heavy people) then agi could easily support a team just as much as STR, if not more.