Author Topic: 0.4.5.0  (Read 51187 times)

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Offline Krave

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2016, 12:33:57 am »
+1
Ok, I'm not ranged so I shouldn't care, but new bows names are completly off. New longbow and hunting longbow aren't real longbows ( longbow is about 1.7-1.8 m long, limbs are circular or D shaped, not recurved )
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2016, 12:36:51 am »
+6
I agree for the low skill weapon but, can you give me some references about the "no accuracy" part ?
Because tbh,  mine tell me exactly the opposite...

Well it took training but not the years and years for the bows and long bows.  As far as accuracy I believe the bows were more of a mass fire weapon than the cross bows.

Informative video on the subject.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 02:01:09 am by Turkhammer »

Offline Nightingale

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2016, 01:13:50 am »
0
If this game was balanced on realism I'd agree, but it isn't so having one weapon reflect realistic expectations would simply just be a nerf at this point. What needs to happen is lower accuracy. for all ranged. Archers as it sounds are already there? I have no idea.

Offline Asheram

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2016, 01:22:57 am »
+3
Ok, I'm not ranged so I shouldn't care, but new bows names are completly off. New longbow and hunting longbow aren't real longbows ( longbow is about 1.7-1.8 m long, limbs are circular or D shaped, not recurved )
I don't get why the needed to rename and reskin them either. What was wrong with the names Horn bow or Tatar bow anyways? Maybe not enough words to use to try to search items in auction house? Hunting Composite Bow- damn Tartar bow a lot easier to remember. War Composite bow - Horn bow easier...yadayada yada
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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2016, 01:23:12 am »
0
Bows, I'm so confused. Which patch notes do I need to read. Meh, I'm joining Salad_Fork.
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Offline Screaming Idiot

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2016, 01:57:07 am »
+4
I agree for the low skill weapon but, can you give me some references about the "no accuracy" part ?
Because tbh,  mine tell me exactly the opposite...
Well it took training but not the years and years for the bows and long bows.  As far as accuracy I believe the bows were more of a mass fire weapon than the cross bows.

While it is true the crossbow was a common weapon for less skilled soldiers and militiamen throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, their merits as a ranged weapon were far from being simple inaccurate mass-fire weapons. First and foremost, we should use the general historical context of cRPG as a basis for discussion, which in of itself spans a wide berth of time, featuring armaments from around the 800s to the 15th or 16th century, which is almost a thousand years of military stratagems and technological development. However, the bulk of the weapons we have and the general context intended for the original M&B Warband is around the 13th to 14th century.

Before I do a more nuanced contrast of the abilities of a stereotypical medieval longbow & crossbow, the principal difference between the two is loading time. Compared to a crossbow, which takes about 10-20 seconds to load and then loose a bolt, a longbow can do so 2 to 5 times as fast, depending on the make of the bow, abilities of the bowman and where his target is. However, almost all other aspects of either weapon around this time period were relatively similar; longbows and crossbows had an effective range of approximately 250-350 yards, along with a similar projectile speed (approx. 137 fps) and a similar ability to penetrate plated targets (with the crossbow performing better at close range and the longbow performing better at long range). However, while the longbow was relatively unchanged in terms of its capabilities throughout the 13th-14th century, crossbows would grow to outperform the longbow in the latter portion of the century and continue to improve throughout the 15th century (with both being phased out by firelocks and gunpowder weapons by the early 16th century).

In terms of skill required for usage, longbows necessitated skilled bowmen, usually trained from birth, to be properly and effectively wielded (much like mounted knights with their steeds and lances). In contrast, crossbowmen needed much less training, but still required a good understanding of the functions and performance of their weapon to use it well. As a result of the difference in skill necessary for each weapon, crossbows were much more popular around Europe due to the comparatively much lower cost of training and fielding men to use them, whereas longbowmen required exorbitant amounts of time and money. Additionally, considering the feudal context of that period in history, crossbowmen could be much more reliably fielded in armies, as burghers or rich serfs could easily pay for their own equipment and training when the need came, whereas longbowmen could only be pooled from a small population dedicated to that position.

TL;DR - Crossbows and longbows performed relatively similarly on the medieval battlefield, with crossbows being much more easy to use and as a result were much more popular (and cheaper) than the longbow.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 02:01:52 am by Screaming Idiot »

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2016, 02:06:09 am »
+4
Not completely true Screaming.  The effective range of the longbow was 300 yards or meters.  The effective range of the crossbow was around 60 yards.  The rates of fire for the long bow was double the cross bow.  At the battle of Crecy the Swiss crossbow mercenaries were forced to retreat by the fire of the English longbows.  They had left their pavises behind and they could not reach the English but they were out ranged by the long bow.

If this game was balanced on realism I'd agree, but it isn't so having one weapon reflect realistic expectations would simply just be a nerf at this point. What needs to happen is lower accuracy. for all ranged. Archers as it sounds are already there? I have no idea.

TBH you could say the same thing about any of the weapons in the mod.  Why should a 10 foot pike be able to stab a target two feet away?  Why should a man be able to swing a four foot sword until his mouse finger is tired?  Why do you say that accuracy of xbows should be nerfed when those "unbalances" are left intact?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 02:14:05 am by Turkhammer »

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2016, 02:17:39 am »
0
If this game was balanced on realism I'd agree, but it isn't so having one weapon reflect realistic expectations would simply just be a nerf at this point. What needs to happen is lower accuracy. for all ranged. Archers as it sounds are already there? I have no idea.

Lower accuracy?? So make it RNG based? That would just frustrate both sides.
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Offline Nightingale

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2016, 02:32:03 am »
0
No I'm saying revert change to before patch, then lower accuracy slightly increase str requirement by +3 not +6 and definitely not +9 in comparison to level patch.

If xbows needed any change at all I'd focus on making each weapon good at something. Much like Rico's suggestion.

Offline Screaming Idiot

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2016, 03:56:42 am »
+1
Not completely true Screaming.  The effective range of the longbow was 300 yards or meters.  The effective range of the crossbow was around 60 yards.  The rates of fire for the long bow was double the cross bow.  At the battle of Crecy the Swiss crossbow mercenaries were forced to retreat by the fire of the English longbows.  They had left their pavises behind and they could not reach the English but they were out ranged by the long bow.

Indeed, at the time of the Battle of Crecy the Genoese (not Swiss) crossbowmen in employ by the French had not yet begun to utilize windlass/composite limbed crossbows as was common during the early 15th century onwards (which, if they had, would have matched or even outperformed the longbow's performance during the battle). I suppose this specific event can be used as a more accurate template for crossbows in cRPG, though I think it would be a good idea to have the higher range, accuracy and penetrating power characteristic of late-medieval crossbows applied to the Arbalest, as it is the most similar analogue we have. Ironically enough, the Arbalest in cRPG does not have a windlass as its name implies (which quite literally means "heavy crossbow with a windlass") but instead is hand-drawn like the weaker crossbows. IMHO, I think it would be pretty sweet to have animations for loading bolts on a windlass-type crossbow so as to better convey its power, tensile strength, expensive construction and for the cool factor.

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2016, 05:17:24 am »
+1
You're correct, it was the Genoese.  And I had just watched a video about it :oops: :D.  Interestingly enough the replacement for both bows and crossbows, firearms, were at Crecy also.  What's also interesting is that after Crecy the numbers of experienced English archers began a decline which accentuated the importance of cross bows.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 05:21:22 am by Turkhammer »

Offline Opset_the_Grey

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2016, 11:00:28 am »
+2
I found an foto of beloved dev team while working on new patch...
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Offline Sagar

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2016, 01:35:00 pm »
0
Patch is fine. Playing from yesterday non-stop, range is still easy.
Expecting raise difficulty for bows as well - 24 str etc.
Also for other heavy weapons - poleaxes ...armors ...
And its insane how throwing is easy, you cant miss a target.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 03:22:36 pm by Sagar »

Offline Úlfur

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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2016, 03:40:17 pm »
0
I made my Bronze Longbow +3. Please  give me my looms back. K thx.

I'll stop trying to talk about this patch, as obviously the people that patch this game have no clue what they're doing.

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 03:55:36 pm by WolvenSpirit »
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Re: 0.4.5.0
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2016, 03:58:04 pm »
+2
Please more female models on armours :)

like plated light brigandine and mongolian lamellar
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 04:25:45 pm by AwesomeHail »
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