Turkey downed a Russian plane

[Jarlek]

Two options:

1) The Geneva convention changed NOTHING and affected the world NOT ONE BIT and EVERYTHING would be EXACTLY the same.
2) The Geneva convention changed the world in some way.


I know you're an intelligent man Xant, you know which one is true.

As to the DEGREE in which it changed, yeah it didn't make everything sunshine, roses and unicorn farts. I shouldn't have said it was a "massive" change, but a change it was.


And yes, ofc it gets broken all the time. But that's the thing. Parts of it gets broken, all over the place, by various factions. But the majority of it is followed by a majority of anyone fighting. The pro-russian insurgents in ukraine doesn't use uniforms? Doesn't mean that every nation (and a lot of paramilitary or rebel/guerrillas) now has official uniforms to mark them as combatants.
US troops torture prisoners? Yeah, they do, UNLIKE the vast majority of countries.

They made rules, some people break them. Most don't. And I don't know about you, but do you think there would be MORE or LESS actions done that we consider war crimes if we never had made any agreements on what is/isn't a war crime?

[Sir_Hans]

The most disappointing thing is the muslim scum country turkey is being defended by the UN.
So they can do this shit while hiding behind their UN shield.

They are both going after ISIS, Turkey and US believe that they should give arms and support these so called "moderate" rebel forces (the ones who shot the russian pilots descended by parachute)...
Russia believes they are all terrorists and that removing Assad will have the same effects as when we removed saddam from Iraq... France and a few other countries also have many politicians who agree that Assad is the lesser of two evils, and eliminating Assad with no clear view of who will take over after him is irresponsible and could cause more damage than it solves.

Assad is an evil motherfucker, but he doesn't publicly execute pretty much every western hostage he gets his hands on in heinous ways... burning them alive, running them over with tanks, putting them in a large metal cage and dropping it into a river, hacking heads off with a hunting knife etc... Furthermore Assad is against ISIS as well.

The UN, USA, Turkey and others should stop arming these FSA rebels and just focus on eliminating ISIS... With Turkey, US, Syria, Russia all going after ISIS and FSA rebels in Syria we could eliminate all the terrorist scum in syria in a matter of months. Then we wouldn't have FSA rebels armed with high tech weaponry from UN countries fighting against Russia who is destroying ISIS.

[pogosan]

[Grytviken]

Two options:

1) The Geneva convention changed NOTHING and affected the world NOT ONE BIT and EVERYTHING would be EXACTLY the same.
2) The Geneva convention changed the world in some way.


I know you're an intelligent man Xant, you know which one is true.

As to the DEGREE in which it changed, yeah it didn't make everything sunshine, roses and unicorn farts. I shouldn't have said it was a "massive" change, but a change it was.


And yes, ofc it gets broken all the time. But that's the thing. Parts of it gets broken, all over the place, by various factions. But the majority of it is followed by a majority of anyone fighting. The pro-russian insurgents in ukraine doesn't use uniforms? Doesn't mean that every nation (and a lot of paramilitary or rebel/guerrillas) now has official uniforms to mark them as combatants.
US troops torture prisoners? Yeah, they do, UNLIKE the vast majority of countries.

They made rules, some people break them. Most don't. And I don't know about you, but do you think there would be MORE or LESS actions done that we consider war crimes if we never had made any agreements on what is/isn't a war crime?

There was nothing even indicating that the aircraft they downed was Russian. They probably thought it was a Syrian aircraft, and killed the pilot. His transponder was turned off, and Syrian aircraft have been shot down doing the same thing before, flying the same aircraft. Most countries don't let an unidentified aircraft fly into their territory so it can crash into a commercial airline or drop a bomb on their homeland by accident. 7 seconds is a long time when they are traveling 2000 mph.

[Ikarus]

When they do this they turn off their transponders so they don't show up on radar and have had several near misses with commercial airlines when doing so. In this incident it's clear that they were utilizing Turkish airspace to conduct a bombing mission. There was no way to tell whether this was a Syrian or Russian aircraft with it's transponder turned off, and the aircraft had been firing into areas not controlled by ISIS on the Syrian side and had been warned multiple times not to roundabout through Turkish airspace to re-enter that area. This was clearly a case of the Russians saying fuck you, we do what we want gone wrong.

prove it

[Grytviken]

prove it

They even locked on to a Turkish aircraft

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/24/politics/syria-russian-fighter-jets/

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-sweden-intercepts-russian-planes-over-baltic-amid-regional-tensions-2015-3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2012_interception_of_Turkish_aircraft

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/13/russia-plane-near-miss-passenger-aircraft-sweden

http://theaviationist.com/2015/10/12/no-russian-aircraft-shot-down-over-syria/

[Rhekimos]

The world took the path of Geneva convention and more restrained warfare already in 1949. It's hard to argue in exactly what way the world would be different had it taken another path, mostly because it's a reality nobody ever experienced. The best we can do is imaginary "what if" scenarios.

[Jarlek]

There was nothing even indicating that the aircraft they downed was Russian. They probably thought it was a Syrian aircraft, and killed the pilot. His transponder was turned off, and Syrian aircraft have been shot down doing the same thing before, flying the same aircraft. Most countries don't let an unidentified aircraft fly into their territory so it can crash into a commercial airline or drop a bomb on their homeland by accident. 7 seconds is a long time when they are traveling 2000 mph.

Good points, but why is this in response to me?


Even without a transponder, wouldn't they still have the general direction of the aircraft? They would have seen that it wasn't heading towards central turkey. Still, a military jet fliest fast, and can carry you far in a short time. Without direct vision it might be too late to notice any change of course so sending fighters up to at least watch/get ready to shoot down should be standard procedure.

Oh btw, most countries DO let unidentified aircrafts fly into their territory without shooting them down, but obviously that's because most countries are not in/next to a war.

The world took the path of Geneva convention and more restrained warfare already in 1949. It's hard to argue in exactly what way the world would be different had it taken another path, mostly because it's a reality nobody ever experienced. The best we can do is imaginary "what if" scenarios.

And then we also got the "these things improved, but is that because of Geneva convention, how warfare being fought changing, globalism, different ethics/morales etc. Too many variables

[Butan]

According to generational theory we're going to live through world crisis in next 20 years. Although it's controversial and not proven, the planet gets more and more fucked up with every piece of news.

According to declinism theory, we are just never happy 

[Sir_Hans]

There was nothing even indicating that the aircraft they downed was Russian. They probably thought it was a Syrian aircraft, and killed the pilot. His transponder was turned off, and Syrian aircraft have been shot down doing the same thing before, flying the same aircraft. Most countries don't let an unidentified aircraft fly into their territory so it can crash into a commercial airline or drop a bomb on their homeland by accident. 7 seconds is a long time when they are traveling 2000 mph.

If that was true then how did they warn the pilot a bunch of times that he was entering airpsace?
They warned him in Arabic because they thought it was a syrian aircraft?

Pretty sure they knew it was a russian aircraft, they probably track all aircraft in syria near their borders and could tell it was russian simply by its point of origin being a russian airbase within Syria.

And as has already been stated on this thread, Turkish aircraft have violated its neighbors airspace many of times and never got shot down...

What most countries do is they scramble fighter jets, the fighter jets attempt to hail the aircraft multiple times, if this does not work the scrambled jets fly on both sides of the intruding aircraft and either fire their machine guns off into the air or roll their aircraft back and fourth which is a universal signal that you are being intercepted and the intruding aircraft should then roll back and fourth to acknowledge this and usually signify that they are going to follow the intercept aircraft back to an aircraft landing... If after all this the intercepted aircraft does not respond and continues to fly deeper into a countries airspace then it is shot down.

When two countries aren't at war, they don't sit there with their fingers on the trigger ready to blow any plane out of the sky the moment they cross into their airspace. Of course Turkey is mad because Russia is bombing the FSA rebel scum they have been arming while also bombing ISIS.

Even during the cold war between the U.S. and Soviet Union when the Korean Airlines flight 007 came into Russian Airspace, twice... Intercept jets were scrambled they made visual contact with the aircraft and they fired warning shots multiple times to warn the aircraft... Unfortunately one of the pilots admitted his aircraft was armed with armor piercing bullets which were most likely not seen by anyone on the passenger airliner. After this a commanding officer of the soviet union gave the order to shoot down the aircraft and it was destroyed... Even during the peak of the cold war the soviet union, on edge, did not destroy the aircraft seconds into it flying into soviet union airspace.

[Grytviken]

If that was true then how did they warn the pilot a bunch of times that he was entering airpsace?
They warned him in Arabic because they thought it was a syrian aircraft?

Pretty sure they knew it was a russian aircraft, they probably track all aircraft in syria near their borders and could tell it was russian simply by its point of origin being a russian airbase within Syria.

And as has already been stated on this thread, Turkish aircraft have violated its neighbors airspace many of times and never got shot down...

What most countries do is they scramble fighter jets, the fighter jets attempt to hail the aircraft multiple times, if this does not work the scrambled jets fly on both sides of the intruding aircraft and either fire their machine guns off into the air or roll their aircraft back and fourth which is a universal signal that you are being intercepted and the intruding aircraft should then roll back and fourth to acknowledge this and usually signify that they are going to follow the intercept aircraft back to an aircraft landing... If after all this the intercepted aircraft does not respond and continues to fly deeper into a countries airspace then it is shot down.

When two countries aren't at war, they don't sit there with their fingers on the trigger ready to blow any plane out of the sky the moment they cross into their airspace. Of course Turkey is mad because Russia is bombing the FSA rebel scum they have been arming while also bombing ISIS.

  No it's dumb as fuck. ISIS doesn't have an airforce and he was flying at close to maximum altitude. They use encrypted modes to trick the ground IFF radar so they can't pinpoint their direction or route to avoid a lock on which is why they took him out with a onboard radar guided missile.

[Kafein]

What's an even bigger joke? The notion that there are "war crimes." As if war is like soccer, a game, with rules and punishments. As if it's a gentlemanly and reasonable affair. War is already the ultimate escalation and has the ultimate consequence, death, for its participants. It's like making up rules for murder; you're both implying murder is fine as long as you follow the rules and that the murderer will care about rules once they've decided to kill someone.

Gee I wonder how we even managed to destroy some of our nuclear weapons.

Amusingly, that idea of war as a fight to the death is a relatively modern 19th century concept tied in with nationalism.

[Sir_Hans]

  No it's dumb as fuck. ISIS doesn't have an airforce and he was flying at close to maximum altitude. They use encrypted modes to trick the ground IFF radar so they can't pinpoint their direction or route to avoid a lock on which is why they took him out with a onboard radar guided missile.

The russian bomber wasn't flying at even half of its maximum altitude of 17,500m...
You are just pulling this shit out of thin air.

The radar tracking the aircraft can either see the aircraft on radar or it can't there is no tricking it so you can't see it's direction. Only commercial aircraft tracking relies on transponders to visibly see an aircraft. Military radar does not rely on transponders, this is why militarys around the world develop stealth jets and helicopters by manipulating materials used and the angles/edges of the aircraft to reduce it's profile on radar. Turkey had the aircraft visible on it's radar, that's how they knew it was coming into their airspace... You note its location, wait 10 seconds and view its location again and you have a general bearing on the direction of the aircraft this is the utmost basic principle of navigation, this is especially easy to tell the direction of an aircraft when it continues to fly in a straight line for a long distance, as the russian bomber was doing before it crossed into turkish airspace for 17 seconds and was blown out of the sky.

[Yarl]

[Grytviken]

The russian bomber wasn't flying at even half of its maximum altitude of 17,500m...
You are just pulling this shit out of thin air.

The radar tracking the aircraft can either see the aircraft on radar or it can't there is no tricking it so you can't see it's direction. Only commercial aircraft tracking relies on transponders to visibly see an aircraft. Military radar does not rely on transponders, this is why militarys around the world develop stealth jets and helicopters by manipulating materials used and the angles/edges of the aircraft to reduce it's profile on radar. Turkey had the aircraft visible on it's radar, that's how they knew it was coming into their airspace... You note its location, wait 10 seconds and view its location again and you have a general bearing on the direction of the aircraft this is the utmost basic principle of navigation, this is especially easy to tell the direction of an aircraft when it continues to fly in a straight line for a long distance, as the russian bomber was doing before it crossed into turkish airspace for 17 seconds and was blown out of the sky.

I read that on RT which has changed their story several times now. And also no shit it showed up on radar, those Russian aircraft are outdated as all fuck, that doesn't change the fact that it was still an unidentified aircraft that tried to deceive the system.