360/180 degrees or wtv polearm stabs

[Keshian]

LOL. No one is going to carry around a 60 lb pole. According to a book I have, a pike was about 18 feet long and weighed about 14 lbs. Makes sense.

I totally agree with making pikes and the long spear unbalanced though.

I don't know about the 60 lbs, but I have never heard of any piece of wood, 3x the length of a man only weighing 14 lbs (weight of 14 pairs of tennis shoes).  It would have to be rail-thin, which would make it snap in half really easily.  It was a rather cumbersome weapon, the main reason it was effective is that you were surrounded by a couple hundred other people with pikes, you didn't need to stab fast, just stick in formation.  (Never heard of anyone overheading like they do with the long spear in this game animation, glad they removed that for the 300 length pike now.

I do agree the pike should be around same speed as heavy lance, and the long spear, bamboo spear, and long awlpike should be speed of normal lance and the normal awlpike should be the speed of the light lance.  Not sure how the unbalanced would change things, but it would make a sort of sense that something that long and unwieldy would be unbalanced.

[Gorath]

Give spear/pikes 4 directions of attack then, or the ability to choke up on the haft, trip you, parry and disarm you, etc to replace the spin-thrust as this is their ONLY effective way of maintaining minimal viability in melee combat since the ez-mode counter is to facehug the spearman/piker and hilt slash at him with your 2h/polearm lightsaber.

[Siboire]

I don't know about the 60 lbs, but I have never heard of any piece of wood, 3x the length of a man only weighing 14 lbs (weight of 14 pairs of tennis shoes).  It would have to be rail-thin, which would make it snap in half really easily.  It was a rather cumbersome weapon, the main reason it was effective is that you were surrounded by a couple hundred other people with pikes, you didn't need to stab fast, just stick in formation.  (Never heard of anyone overheading like they do with the long spear in this game animation, glad they removed that for the 300 length pike now.

I do agree the pike should be around same speed as heavy lance, and the long spear, bamboo spear, and long awlpike should be speed of normal lance and the normal awlpike should be the speed of the light lance.  Not sure how the unbalanced would change things, but it would make a sort of sense that something that long and unwieldy would be unbalanced.

Indeed to all. All long polearms like pikes should be really slow, should only stab and it should not be doable to change the stab direction DURING a stab animation (smaller polearms like awlpike should be ok I guess but something 18 feet long O.O''). I mean comon! Who could turn on himself while stabbing with something 18 feet long?
We also need something to remove the "I-stab-u-up-your-skirt lolstab" (pikeman stabbing somebody facehugging him by lookin briefly at floor while stabbin)

Give spear/pikes 4 directions of attack then, or the ability to choke up on the haft, trip you, parry and disarm you, etc to replace the spin-thrust as this is their ONLY effective way of maintaining minimal viability in melee combat since the ez-mode counter is to facehug the spearman/piker and hilt slash at him with your 2h/polearm lightsaber.

huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels. "spin-trust" is in it's way an exploit of a failure in the game system.

[Gorath]

huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels.

Funny, because pikemen/spearmen were using the predominant battlefield weapons for most of human history, with highly developed dueling and warfare techniques and a myriad of styles (often moreso than any other weapon on the field).

The swiss, germans, chinese, japanese and more all had EXTREMELY developed fighting/dueling systems for everything from short spears to pikes and everything in-between.  The germans especially have/had an extensively evolved long-spear martial arts style using spears in c-rpg terms of what would be around bamboo spear length.  There's still fencing clubs that practice them today.  The asian cultures as well have/had amazingly in-depth spear arts that still exist today.  The Maori tribes also had insanely deep spear-fighting techniques and disciplines throughout their culture.

I know hollywood really really promotes the sword and all, but look at the sum-total of human warfare.  Spears and bows were the two weapons that really defined our species.

Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques:  http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s

*TLDR :  Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).

[Siboire]

This is a game, I was not talking about realism. You can't have 200 reach AND be able to stab/overhead somebody that is right in ur face in the game, it's either one or the other. If not, then I want my arbalest to shoot bolts with the size of a tree at pinpoint accuracy, and can hit multiple targets, oh and I can use my Arbalest to bash ppl in the face with 

[Gorath]

This is a game, I was not talking about realism. You can't have 200 reach AND be able to stab/overhead somebody that is right in ur face in the game, it's either one or the other. If not, then I want my arbalest to shoot bolts with the size of a tree at pinpoint accuracy, and can hit multiple targets, oh and I can use my Arbalest to bash ppl in the face with 

Your arbalest idea isn't basic in either reality NOR LOGIC.  The usage of spears/longspears as dueling weapons IS based on LOGIC.
*Game-wise:  Those weapons are already weak as hell compared to other weapon types for dueling purposes.  The fact that people have found a way to make them work decent is a testiment to their skill more than anything else.

[Tydeus]

Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques:  http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s

*TLDR :  Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).

I started out by typing some sarcasm, then decided to just say fuck it. You're completely and utterly wrong if you think you can fight a sword and board or a greatsword user with an 18 foot polearm and not be at a disadvantage. The existence of "techniques" says nothing about the effectiveness in all situations. You can take karate classes on how to disarm someone with a gun, does that mean a bunch of black bets would ever be able to kill a bunch of modern day soldiers with guns? Fuck no it doesn't.

Those videos you linked show nothing about poles longer than 8 feet, not to mention fighting people of different weapon types. They prove absolutely nothing aside from the already well known fact, that there are indeed spear techniques.

The phalanx was effective because you had several other men with you which helped to keep enemies from getting close, because once they got close enough, you were dead if you were still holding that pike in your hand.

tldr: Your delusional idea on the "reality of weapons", that spears/longspears (pikes) should be efficient in 1v1 duels against swords is simply put, fucking retarded.

If you're going to act like an ass, you can expect to get the same thing in return and I'm always more than willing to step in and do this for other people.

[Gorath]

I started out by typing some sarcasm, then decided to just say fuck it.

Apparently you said fuck it to reading fucktard

huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels. "spin-trust" is in it's way an exploit of a failure in the game system.

Funny, because pikemen/spearmen were using the predominant battlefield weapons for most of human history, with highly developed dueling and warfare techniques and a myriad of styles (often moreso than any other weapon on the field).

The swiss, germans, chinese, japanese and more all had EXTREMELY developed fighting/dueling systems for everything from short spears to pikes and everything in-between.  The germans especially have/had an extensively evolved long-spear martial arts style using spears in c-rpg terms of what would be around bamboo spear length.  There's still fencing clubs that practice them today.  The asian cultures as well have/had amazingly in-depth spear arts that still exist today.  The Maori tribes also had insanely deep spear-fighting techniques and disciplines throughout their culture.

I know hollywood really really promotes the sword and all, but look at the sum-total of human warfare.  Spears and bows were the two weapons that really defined our species.

Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques:  http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s

*TLDR :  Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).

Read first next time dipshit.  I never said anything about an 18 foot polearm, of which we don't even have in the game (maybe the "long" pike, but that can only thrust and glances off of EVERYTHING that's not at max range)  I made it pretty clear the type of weapons I was referring to in regards to his comment that spearmen were incapable of dueling with any success.

Next time you're going to be a cunt, take a closer look at exactly what you're trying to be a cunt about.  "Pikes" btw were anywhere from 3-7.5 meters long.  An 8-9 foot pike (which is about what we have in the game) is functional with longspear techniques as that's essentially all it is.

[Tydeus]

Apparently you said fuck it to reading fucktard

Read first next time dipshit.  I never said anything about an 18 foot polearm, of which we don't even have in the game (maybe the "long" pike, but that can only thrust and glances off of EVERYTHING that's not at max range)  I made it pretty clear the type of weapons I was referring to in regards to his comment that spearmen were incapable of dueling with any success.

Next time you're going to be a cunt, take a closer look at exactly what you're trying to be a cunt about.  "Pikes" btw were anywhere from 3-7.5 meters long.  An 8-9 foot pike (which is about what we have in the game) is functional with longspear techniques as that's essentially all it is.

It's not a matter of being 18 ft exactly, (which was stated by the guy you were arguing with). It's about the extreme length of your weapon making it impossible to actually do more than block attacks from a shorter weapon, when in close range. You stated the word "pike" which by the way, 3 meters = 9.8 feet, not 8-9 ft like in your example. Yet again you're wrong.

Good job not reading anything except the first two sentences, you know, the parts where I argued with the bulk of your post that I apparently didn't read. How convenient for you to try and get off without having to concede your points, by saying I was the one that didn't read.

[Gorath]

I know you believe that swords are the absolute best dueling weapons EVAR and that there's no way a long spear or pike could ever hope to defend himself, much less defeat the uber manliness that is a sword user.  Oh the only thing he could ever hope to do is block for dear life against the almighty power of the sword and pray god smites him down before he is run through.  /tremble

Nevermind the fact that there's trapping/grappling techniques along with a weapon that just as capable of dealing damaging blows with any part of it besides the pointy tip, just like with most weapons.  Nor the fact that, other than your bundle of sticks attempt to bring guns into it which single handedly changed combat on the planet in history, an unarmed man was just as capable of defeating the godly sword wielders as anyone in a duel.  Spearmen, and yes a well trained pikeman with a short pike 9.8! (god forbid I don't have euro-math memorized) feet long as well.

[Tydeus]

I know you believe that swords are the absolute best dueling weapons EVAR and that there's no way a long spear or pike could ever hope to defend himself, much less defeat the uber manliness that is a sword user.  Oh the only thing he could ever hope to do is block for dear life against the almighty power of the sword and pray god smites him down before he is run through.  /tremble

Nevermind the fact that there's trapping/grappling techniques along with a weapon that just as capable of dealing damaging blows with any part of it besides the pointy tip, just like with most weapons.  Nor the fact that, other than your bundle of sticks attempt to bring guns into it which single handedly changed combat on the planet in history, an unarmed man was just as capable of defeating the godly sword wielders as anyone in a duel.  Spearmen, and yes a well trained pikeman with a short pike 9.8! (god forbid I don't have euro-math memorized) feet long as well.

And this one idiotic statement concluded our argument, forcing me to yield to your delusional perception of reality. It would have been fine if you said "could" but instead you stated "just as capable". You remind me of one of those kids back in high school that would only listen to underground music because anything mainstream was obviously distorted. Allow me to quote another person trying to argue with you in another thread from just a few minutes ago.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Maybe, just maybe there is a trend here.

[Moen]

 people use them in face to face combat in the first place.

There is a good reason people do that

http://vimeo.com/4619491

[Siboire]

Turnin on urself while stabbing does not require much skills... I dont see why you keep defending them by saying it requires skill to exploit a bug 0.0" dueling with any other kind of weapon requires much much more than just running around-turnin-stabbing somebody in their face with a bug.

I dont understand gorath, everytime i see a post of urs on the forum its just a desperate attempt to protect something that everybody agrees to say its broken...

[Phyrex]

I must disagree with you.

Unfortunately, we're limited to only one set of animations and four attack direction. The game is already too easy as it is, spinthrusting and all the hit-box variants(You can do the same thing with overhead and side slashes too.) have done nothing to the game except adding a tiny bit depth to the otherwise shallow combat.

Clever use of game mechanics, I say.

[Kharn]

I searched google and clicked when I saw this link

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight for Length Scales
Attempting to estimate the weight of a pike from its length is a risky business. For any given length pike can vary in weight by a great amount.
http://www.pacgb.co.uk/aboutpike/weightforlength.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ROFL

THIS ... is quite the funny fail.  At least there are pikes that weight that much. Ill take solace in that.

...damn fish.


All argument aside This is what is needed as a goal:

Make pikes near useless in a one on one fight, while at the same time not making the pike itself useless.