Author Topic: This organization against guns opened a gun store in NYC to make a point.  (Read 4358 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Name one thing that is not designed to kill that kills easier than squeezing a trigger.

Cars? They even kill without approval of the user. That's next-gen shit.

It's far from useless, it's our weapon of choice for large-scale violence or street violence. As a tool it's very good at performing it's primary function.

It's our weapon of choice for other, more reasonable things.

That's exactly what we've been talking about. Why do you differentiate between hunting rifles and sniper rifles/silencers? Because they are designed for totally different things.

No. I differentiate because they are actually different and perform differently.

Not be be a massive jerk, but here's where you seem to be contradicting yourself as your other posts say it doesn't matter what it's designed for but now you're saying that certain types of weapon are hard to justify? Because they are made for different scenarios, explicitly for killing humans. Yes we attach meaning to objects ourselves, but you cant deny the functional difference between ones that are primarily good at killing humans and those that aren't, your last post shows that you're aware of the difference at least.

I think you fundamentally don't understand the difference between design and actual things. A silencer isn't bad because it was explicitly designed to kill humans, it is bad because I can't imagine a scenario in which a law-abiding person might need a silencer. I dunno, maybe there's a subtlety of English that I don't get here, my point is that what went inside the head of whoever created something is irrelevant when describing the actual thing.

Offline Taser

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No Xant if anything it's subjective to suggest a gun is anything but a gun. To me a gun is a gun because it is declared by the manufacturer as such. It is classified by laws and regulations as a gun. It will never be a book end or a toothbrush even if you use it like one. The fact that to someone else it might be something else is entirely subjective. But I'm seriously not going to argue about philosophical nonsense about what something is and isn't. It so far removed from practicality that it's a complete waste of time.

Miring my toothbrush?

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Offline Oberyn

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+1

It's our weapon of choice for other, more reasonable things.

There's an oft misatributed quote to Orwell that goes:

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us."

It may be misattributed, but the sentiment isn't. 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations

-Actual source: Quote Investigator found the earliest known appearance in a 1993 Washington Times essay by Richard Grenier: "As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." The absence of quotation marks indicates that Grenier was using his own words to convey his interpretation of Orwell's opinion, as seen in citations below.

-Orwell wrote that pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."

-In an essay on Rudyard Kipling, Orwell cited Kipling's phrase "making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep" (Kipling, Tommy), and further noted that Kipling's "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can be highly civilized only while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them."


Private property is the foundation of "civilization", such as it is. It has always been guaranteed, ultimately, by the threat of violence. Whatever high minded social contracts we've superimposed over this base fact aren't weightless by any means, but they only overlay this blunt and brutal truth, the silk glove covering the iron fist.
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Offline Kafein

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There's an oft misatributed quote to Orwell that goes:

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us."

It may be misattributed, but the sentiment isn't. 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations

-Actual source: Quote Investigator found the earliest known appearance in a 1993 Washington Times essay by Richard Grenier: "As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." The absence of quotation marks indicates that Grenier was using his own words to convey his interpretation of Orwell's opinion, as seen in citations below.

-Orwell wrote that pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."

-In an essay on Rudyard Kipling, Orwell cited Kipling's phrase "making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep" (Kipling, Tommy), and further noted that Kipling's "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can be highly civilized only while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them."


Private property is the foundation of "civilization", such as it is. It has always been guaranteed, ultimately, by the threat of violence. Whatever high minded social contracts we've superimposed over this base fact aren't weightless by any means, but they only overlay this blunt and brutal truth, the silk glove covering the iron fist.

Okay, but I don't know how this relates to what I said.

Because they are actually different and perform differently? Unlike cars and guns?

Car and guns aren't the same thing but they can both be used to do morally reprehensible things.

And i think we're fundamentally talking about different definitions of the word 'design'. I'm talking about the object as a functional tool, and that's what my usage of the term 'design' means.

Then we're definitely not talking about the same concept.

A car has many functional uses, misuse can result in death in the hands of the truly incompetent or extremely unfortunate. An automatic weapon has the functional use of killing humans well, unlike a car you can kill people in buildings, you can even use it to massacre a school if you felt like it. You could argue that it has another purpose and that it functions as a deterrent to other gun-wielders (but it's only a deterrent because it's good at killing, you can't deny its primary attribute because it's not good at anything else, you'd be daft to go hunting with one). When a gun is used to kill someone it's not a result of a person misusing the tool they've been given like it is with a car, the gun is actually being used for the purpose it was made for; firing little bits of metal at another human to kill them.

Equally to your silencer example i cant imagine a scenario in my country in which a law-abiding person would need an automatic weapon, maybe cos it's not the wild west out here.

There's inevitably a line to draw somewhere in the sand, and it will inevitably be an arbitrary line.

Offline Tibe

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I think if I lived in the US, id buy a gun too, for safety. Wouldnt even think about it anywhere else in the modern and normal countries however.


Offline Thomek

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Jeez are those numbers 4 real??
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That Thomeck-delay-kicking bussiness is like that asshole-retard dude that fucks your sister sometimes.

Offline Lt_Anders

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Wouldn't doubt it. Sadly, most criminals in the US are armed and don't arrest "peacefully." Most of them will attempt to kill officers. This has caused the unfortunate side effect of our police becoming very heavy handed in their dealings. TBH, putting police cameras on cops is, i think, the best option. That way, it'll reduce these "incidents" of police brutality and hopefully reform the police system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

161 officers killed in 2014 alone, not counting who officers killed.(probably double that, easily)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:13:31 pm by Lt_Anders »
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Offline Xant

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Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Lt_Anders

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Offline Tibe

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Yes, compare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

That's the Brits since 1900.
Quote
Peter James Wringe   PC   23   Essex Police   4 July 1982   Fell through roof while searching a premises

Ban roofs. God that must have sucked.