[Poll] Feedback on 2h stab.

[Richter]

Personally, having just switched to a two-hander on my stf character, I feel the current two hand thrust animation is perfectly in line with the balance of the other animations.

The fact is that the original 2h stab animation was unchanged from later versions of the original, singleplayer only Mount & Blade game.(1.011)

I played from just before the release of the last version of Mount & Blade, through the beta of Warband and obviously up to now. During the beta I had a chance to observe the rapid and repeated revisions of the old, robotic, years old animations made before the expansion. All the animations gradually improved and became more human, and more believable.

Except for the two-handed stab animation.

This one didn't change at all. I guess the devs had better things to do, but the way in which this animation conducted itself was fundamentally different from the thrusts of polearms or one-handers.
It begins primed from a high and straight angle, the tip far in front of the swordsman, and is held there in a pretty unnatural looking position.(robotic, as I've said)

The animation stabs out to bring the blade out as far as the arm can possibly extend, almost as if the person didn't intend to bring the blade back at all. Compared to all other melee animations, it offered a massively better range per point of weapon reach. Warspears are questioned in their ability to outrange a greatsword thrust.

The nature of two handed weapons does improve the reach per length of the weapon compared to polearms. Instead of holding just before midlength as in a polearm, it is delivered with a grip at the end of the weapon. Onehanders are even better in this way, but they are less controllable at an earlier point of range/mass.

A game that uses realism/physics and accurate to the eye hit detection, should not feature any animation that does not conform to the realities of the human body.
The old twohanded stab was ridiculous for reasons stated. It was a dinosaur surrounded by updated animations. The new animation looks excellent, functions effectively, and feels fair.

[Richter]

okay how the hell do I delete this extra accidental post

This one, not the one above.

[Rando]

Bring back the native stab, end of story. There's no reason to make it different from literally every other module out there just because you thought it "looks better".

Really, who are you to change a CORE game mechanic just because of aesthetics?

I honestly feel like most of the people who hate this new stab aren't seeing this thread, and all the bellyachers who sit around on the forums not actually playing the game HAVE.

[Voncrow]

Bring back the native stab, end of story. There's no reason to make it different from literally every other module out there just because you thought it "looks better".

Really, who are you to change a CORE game mechanic just because of aesthetics?

I honestly feel like most of the people who hate this new stab aren't seeing this thread, and all the bellyachers who sit around on the forums not actually playing the game HAVE.

What kind of mad man would mod a video game to fit their preference, especially to change how things look. Can you imagine if someone change the textures of all loomed items to look fancier, what madness that would be. I just don't understand this concept of changing the game to fit ones preference.

[Rando]

What kind of mad man would mod a video game to fit their preference, especially to change how things look. Can you imagine if someone change the textures of all loomed items to look fancier, what madness that would be. I just don't understand this concept of changing the game to fit ones preference.

The problem lies in the fact that he changed it for EVERYONE.

[Dionysus]

Hey, Senni. I'm not going to rail you out for the change, mainly because I respect you and all the community devs who've been keeping the mod alive. That being said, I'm going to say that after giving this new animation an honest attempt, I still have absolutely no idea how to use it. It's hard to see, hard to use, and I can't say any of the kills I've gotten using it were earned. I am not even joking, I have specialized two of my characters to be two-handers, and I still don't know what is going on with this animation. This treads into the realm of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", and I genuinely think the TaleWorlds developers (like a lot of other features in Warband) designed it to look the way it did for a reason. The polearm stab and one-handed stabs are both very visible. You can anchor your vision on your character like you normally would. But the new two-handed stab has me looking at the point of my weapon, and often times because I can't really see where it's going, I have to look at a higher angle like the trick of hitting close enemies with a long polearm. Even then I still end up glancing or just going straight through the guy like he's not there.

When I first joined, there was this huge counterculture that was anti-strength and anti-2h, and it seems since the Donkey Crew left, the players who volunteered to keep developing cRPG have catered to the unfounded claims that those two aspects of the game were game-breaking and needed to be put to a stop. But having taken a step back and really analyzed what separates the noobs from the pros, an understanding of the game and how other players move and swing will always triumph over silly animations or imbalances in builds. All in all, I think this was an unnecessary change, and I would strongly urge you to consider reverting it.

[Smoothrich]

Wasn't, haven't.

Like a broken record: It's because I thought the old one looked terribad.
Not because of the abuse (not sure I've ever said it was because of the abuse).

The hitboxes are still a tad unpredictable, so I'll look into that.

We all know you think your animation looks better but it fucking sucks. No one is asking you to "look at the hitboxes" we're telling you you're done. It's over. The only people who voted to support you in that poll are doing it because they know the new stab is so incredibly shitty in every way that 2handers get mad just thinking about how the joy of stabbing is completely gone for good. Pack your mod tools and go back to LoL. The two-handers have spoken.

You're fired.

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[Rando]

He's a current modder/developer working on the game, that's who. He polled the community before he did and got overwhelming favour, he didnt need to do that poll, Donkey Crew never did before implementing something new and radical.

I honestly feel like the same 5 people who hate this new stab are basically the *only* ones seeing this thread, all the nice people who enjoy the game are playing it.

I'm going to be trying to get a feel for how people would like the native stab back, probably by periodically dropping the question on NA_1. I would suggest doing the same on EU for anyone who plays on there. I can't imagine many people realy like it, because I honestly feel like most of the stabs I land are simply because no one expects me to try a stab since the new animation is so bad.

[Smoothrich]

He's a current modder/developer working on the game, that's who. He polled the community before he did and got overwhelming favour, he didnt need to do that poll, Donkey Crew never did before implementing something new and radical.

I honestly feel like the same 5 people who hate this new stab are basically the *only* ones seeing this thread, all the nice people who enjoy the game are playing it.

Knock it off you "two-handed hero" epithet throwing troll. This "Senni__Ti" whoever that is actually can't tell the difference between cheerleading shitposting and flaming in the "class/balance wars" and anyone actually talking about balance and design honestly and knowledgeably. Since I'm not an autistic idiot I know you've been making fun of 2handed players for years now and there is a vocal minority who will agree with any change no matter how bad it is just to grief players who "main" other classes.

However to step back from my inflammatory language for one very brief moment, if you read the past few page you see "item balancer" "item designer" etc titles on a whole bunch of people, along with many experienced veteran players, who were all trying to calmy, inoffensively, but assertively explain to Senni_Ti that it is nothing personal, but the animation is garbage and completely ruins the class and no one actually enjoys its aesthetics function or form.

The fact that Senni is still using this poll as some kind of validation to dismiss or ignore the genuine, repeated, glaringly obvious criticisms that just about everyone with a respectable opinion are positing is understandable, but hilariously disingenuous.

If I made a poll "Should I kill myself?" and it inevitably got a majority vote yes, would I do it? How fucking stupid do you think I am?

How fucking stupid.. are you?

[Rando]

Knock it off you "two-handed hero" epithet throwing troll. This "Senni__Ti" whoever that is actually can't tell the difference between cheerleading shitposting and flaming in the "class/balance wars" and anyone actually talking about balance and design honestly and knowledgeably. Since I'm not an autistic idiot I know you've been making fun of 2handed players for years now and there is a vocal minority who will agree with any change no matter how bad it is just to grief players who "main" other classes.

However to step back from my inflammatory language for one very brief moment, if you read the past few page you see "item balancer" "item designer" etc titles on a whole bunch of people, along with many experienced veteran players, who were all trying to calmy, inoffensively, but assertively explain to Senni_Ti that it is nothing personal, but the animation is garbage and completely ruins the class and no one actually enjoys its aesthetics function or form.

The fact that Senni is still using this poll as some kind of validation to dismiss or ignore the genuine, repeated, glaringly obvious criticisms that just about everyone with a respectable opinion are positing is understandable, but hilariously disingenuous.

If I made a poll "Should I kill myself?" and it inevitably got a majority vote yes, would I do it? How fucking stupid do you think I am?

How fucking stupid.. are you?

We've already made it clear he's a troll, asking him if he's stupid seems like folly. Might as well just ignore him since we can't seem to come to an agreement.

[Rebelyell]

This way everybody wins, 2h has an abusable mechanic, everyone else gets to enjoy 2hand tears

OH COMON
like polearms can not abuse theirs animation, or 1h stab is UP maybe
Stop being such a fanboy.

New 2h stab is as abusable as old one, to land proper hit you have to wiggle your mouse no matter what.
New animation looks good only when peoples try to stab head with it but that is not a case in crpg.

I really invested some serious time in to that stab and it is just meh.
For my playstyle it killed way how I use some weapons (and my view on balance of them) but it is up for player.
I really think that new stab is good for long greatswords but not in every case.

New stab is also unrealistic, handling is to far from the hips when weapon is ready for attack, I think(not sure must check that) right hand should be on pommel and pusch weapon.

Also that tehnic generate way more force=>damange but who cares anyway.

When someone try to stab and look down... faspping hobo in the corner looks more knightly that need some work especialy when you talk how unrealistick old stab looks like.


we dont need beta versions of animations give us full relase

[korppis]

Hey, Senni. I'm not going to rail you out for the change, mainly because I respect you and all the community devs who've been keeping the mod alive. That being said, I'm going to say that after giving this new animation an honest attempt, I still have absolutely no idea how to use it. It's hard to see, hard to use, and I can't say any of the kills I've gotten using it were earned. I am not even joking, I have specialized two of my characters to be two-handers, and I still don't know what is going on with this animation. This treads into the realm of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", and I genuinely think the TaleWorlds developers (like a lot of other features in Warband) designed it to look the way it did for a reason. The polearm stab and one-handed stabs are both very visible. You can anchor your vision on your character like you normally would. But the new two-handed stab has me looking at the point of my weapon, and often times because I can't really see where it's going, I have to look at a higher angle like the trick of hitting close enemies with a long polearm. Even then I still end up glancing or just going straight through the guy like he's not there.

Well said. I'm having the same problem, and with current animation it feels like I have to aim in the sky and drag it down just to see where the hell it's going to hit... so much for aesthetics.

Also I don't agree that it's justified to mess the animation for whole 2h class just to make few greatswords look better. It was a fine experiment but since you can't separate greatswords from other 2h's with this engine, please just revert it to old good version and hope that it's more moddable in Melee.

[Rando]

Just as many veterans like the change, they just don't feel the need to flame here because they're happy.

If you count Rando as one of those calm individuals, you should know he bitches and flames about everything so his opinion is worth zero here.

I only really started taking the piss out of 2hand heroes after this change, because the reaction was hilarious as they try to claim their old animation was underpowered if anything and needed a buff xD classic 'buff my class, nerf everyone else' syndrome.

Don't be silly heskey, I don't feel like the old stab was underpowered. I don't want 2h buffed, I just want it reverted to its normal state. (I guess it would technically be a buff, considering this new stab is useless to most )

[Halk]

Hey, Senni. I'm not going to rail you out for the change, mainly because I respect you and all the community devs who've been keeping the mod alive. That being said, I'm going to say that after giving this new animation an honest attempt, I still have absolutely no idea how to use it. It's hard to see, hard to use, and I can't say any of the kills I've gotten using it were earned. I am not even joking, I have specialized two of my characters to be two-handers, and I still don't know what is going on with this animation. This treads into the realm of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", and I genuinely think the TaleWorlds developers (like a lot of other features in Warband) designed it to look the way it did for a reason. The polearm stab and one-handed stabs are both very visible. You can anchor your vision on your character like you normally would. But the new two-handed stab has me looking at the point of my weapon, and often times because I can't really see where it's going, I have to look at a higher angle like the trick of hitting close enemies with a long polearm. Even then I still end up glancing or just going straight through the guy like he's not there.

When I first joined, there was this huge counterculture that was anti-strength and anti-2h, and it seems since the Donkey Crew left, the players took who volunteered to keep developing cRPG have catered to the unfounded claims that those two aspects of the game were game-breaking and needed to be put to a stop. But having taken a step back and really analyzed what separates the noobs from the pros, an understanding of the game and how other players move and swing will always triumph over silly animations or imbalances in builds. All in all, I think this was an unnecessary change, and I would strongly urge you to consider reverting it.

This sums it up quite good. I also believe that the old stab was there for a reason and I'm sure that you, Senni, aren't the only one that has made this kind of animation that starts from the hips. Taleworlds must've tried dozens of animations and the decision to stay with the one that starts from the head-level must've been the result of countless test animations with different positions.

[LEKIS]

It's fine in my opinion.

But anyway, just deal with it

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