Steel Pick..?

[Digglez]

Wise words. Be sure to base your argument on reality, and not the la-la land you make in your head. As many people have stated, and you have yet to refute, the steel pick does considerably more effective damage than an overwhelming number of two handed weapons and polearms, while still carrying the extremely high attack speed it has.

I can reaffirm what Kesh has stated earlier, it is one of the most common 1h weapons in the game. Additionally, there has not been a "huge surge" in the number of polearm users. In fact, the number of polearm users has remained fairly static. It is not, in fact, uncommon, and even if it were, it would not prove that it was "fine and balanced."

Oh its only the '2nd' most used 1h weapon behind swords...which still makes it used by probably less than 5-10% of the players...thats "uncommon" in my book.  Spare me your intellectual wannabe drivel about arguments, you've got your perceptions and I have mine (which is very high due to my high wisdom modifiers).  Its a shame the mod doesnt keep stats like Valve games and you guys could eat your words.

[PieParadox]

Digglez continues to repeat his same old argument of pointing out correlations without attempting to even explain the causation.

Is he trolling??   

my high wisdom modifiers

[Seawied]

Digglez continues to repeat his same old argument of pointing out correlations without attempting to even explain the causation.

Is he trolling??

Is he trolling? At this point, most likely. Either that, or he has problems reading.

[Fasader]

About that overuse

One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5:         70748 (20.61%)

48582 swords
14707 picks+maces

[San]

Someone mentioned "why?" about surgical changes. Sometimes if you keep altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons, it makes the situation worse. Actual thought and proof need to go into these factual arguments, not people spouting random BS that may not even be true.

[Seawied]

48582 swords
14707 picks+maces

Pretty steep ratio when you consider out of the 76 one handed weapons, only 10 of them are viable picks or maces. I'm being pretty liberal with the term "viable" there too.

[Digglez]

About that overuse

One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5:         70748 (20.61%)

48582 swords
14707 picks+maces

Awesome!  Thanks for the numbers.  Do you have access to NA stats as well?

[Fasader]

Pretty steep ratio when you consider out of the 76 one handed weapons, only 10 of them are viable picks or maces. I'm being pretty liberal with the term "viable" there too.

How many viable swords are there?

Awesome!  Thanks for the numbers.  Do you have access to NA stats as well?

I don't have NA logs access. You'd have to ask the people who have server logs.

[Bulzur]

About that overuse

One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5:         70748 (20.61%)

48582 swords
14707 picks+maces

On thing that probably "breaks" thoses stats are 1h/cav people. They're ALL carrying a 1h sword.
So when we're speaking of 1h infantry, i'm pretty sure there's "only" twice as much kills with a sword then with a pick, even though there's like 10 times more people with a sword than with a pick (say Mr Digglez). Wich would mean pick user have a better k/d ratio than sword. So... that the pick is overpowered ?

And anyway, stats are cool, but you must also take into account that there's a lot of people who don't care about their weapons stats, or just want a sword cause it's cool, or whatever. Whereas a pick isn't. I mean, you're a miner or a fighter ?

[Gurnisson]

The short length is almost a blessing when used with a large shield like the lolscarl, since it's harder to spot, I.E. harder to block.

[zagibu]

On thing that probably "breaks" thoses stats are 1h/cav people. They're ALL carrying a 1h sword.
So when we're speaking of 1h infantry, i'm pretty sure there's "only" twice as much kills with a sword then with a pick, even though there's like 10 times more people with a sword than with a pick (say Mr Digglez). Wich would mean pick user have a better k/d ratio than sword. So... that the pick is overpowered ?

And anyway, stats are cool, but you must also take into account that there's a lot of people who don't care about their weapons stats, or just want a sword cause it's cool, or whatever. Whereas a pick isn't. I mean, you're a miner or a fighter ?

Your statistical intuition is most entertaining, sir, keep up the good clownery! Certainly, 1h cav is responsible for more than 40% of 1h sword kills. And certainly, steel picks are responsible for 100% of total pick+mace kills. Certainly.

Seriously, though, if you nerf the steel pick, 1h+shield kills will likely drop below 20%. That's just sad. Maybe remove the steel pick and buff all other 1h?

[Diomedes]

Someone mentioned "why?" about surgical changes. Sometimes if you keep altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons, it makes the situation worse. Actual thought and proof need to go into these factual arguments, not people spouting random BS that may not even be true.

The proof is in the pudding.  I'm an experienced 1h player, I've played with most kinds of 1h weapon and have fair room to say some are more powerful than others.  The steel pick is an exceptionally powerful weapon because it has significant strengths (speed, damage) and its key weakness (length) is largely mitigated by the presence of a shield.  I think you're being presumptive in posting these statements because it ignores 1. the comparison of steel pick damage to other weapons (e.g. the bec, the warhammer, etc.) 2. the analysis of the value of weapon length with and without a shield 3. the specific capacity of the steel pick to easily hit the head on left-to-right swings 4. the exceptional speed of the pick for a weapon which already limits an opponent's reaction time because of its size/shape. 

This thread has been centered on a fact-based discussion of why the steel pick is an unbalanced weapon.  This does not constitute "altering things due to the moment or without sufficient reasons" because it's a discussion which is factually based.  Leaping into the middle of a discussion is precisely the sort of thing which can lead one to believe there is an absence of "thought and proof" when so much has already been provided.

Seriously, though, if you nerf the steel pick, 1h+shield kills will likely drop below 20%. That's just sad. Maybe remove the steel pick and buff all other 1h?

I'd like it to lose 2 speed until the devs decide what to do.  -2 speed puts it above the military pick but below crazytown speeds.


It's worth pointing out, again, that my arguments about weapon frequency are still standing.  Unless someone demonstrates they're false I suggest we ignore all issues of weapon frequency or average kill/death ratios.  Such things are very circumstantial and ought not be considered the primary motivation for nerfing or not nerfing an item. 

[San]

I'm not sure if the data provided gives us enough information. We can only speculate so much of the effectiveness of the steel pick from that data.

Usually things need to be tweaked if there exists an overcentralizing tactic or equipment/build combination. You can list all the pros of the steel pick, but in what ways do we know it's overcentralizing? I understand that it is a very good weapon. The notions about using/not using it because of fun is irrelevant.

I just want to stress caution and more discussion with a general consensus, especially since after reading through this topic again there were still some divergent opinions on viable tactics against the steel pick, mostly in discussing how much length is a weakness, and the amount of steel picks seen in regular matches.

[Keshian]

About that overuse

One handed kills in the past 7 days on eu 1,2,5:         70748 (20.61%)

48582 swords
14707 picks+maces

Cool stats, doesn't really help much though if 80% of the pick+maces categories are steel pick kills and 30% of sword kills are long espada, they would still be 2 most popular 1handed weapons.  Most of the other picks and maces are rarely used because if you are going to use one then you are going to use the OP steel pick not the cheaper picks in the game which are both slower and do less damage.

[Seawied]

How many viable swords are there?

Quite a few in my opinion. I would say anything from the nomad sabre up can be effective. Probably around 40. Maybe more.

As Kesh and others have said though, it does depend on the individual use of each sword. I'm sure the "simple sword" doesn't rack up half as many kills as the gross messenger or long espanda, just like I would be shocked if the knobbed mace had a fifth as many kills as the steel pick.