C-Rpg Classic

[Leshma]

Siege server that are populated. Yes they are full of noobs, but they are populated you know. But you can do the same on less populated TDM/Battle servers. Not on IG_Battlegrounds though, that is cav fest. And its like cRPG EU1 prime time, 40 players max.

Yes native archers kill in up to 3 arrows, but anything in native kills in 3 hits so yeah, native is deadly. And I prefer it that way. No loom crutch of cRPG.

[Teeth]

What, are you talking about NeoGK Siege? To use experiences on that server to talk about combat mechanics is entirely laughable. Of course the 2h and polearm top that server. The server doesn't even have team damage and with the poor hit detection on teammates of Native, that means that any scrub can grab something high reach and high damage like a GLB and one shot everything straight through his teammates. I play that server now and then as well, which is fun mostly because I can get twice the kills of the second player with a quarter of the deaths everytime, but the lack of hit detection on teammates is extremely frustrating.

If you want to talk about Native combat mechanics or balance, you should base your arguments on IG_Battlegrounds or competitive play. The exact reason why Native Battle servers are rarely well populated is because the balance is very rock-paper-scissors instead of giving most classes some chance against most classes like in cRPG. Playing scissors against good rock and paper players is no fun unless you brought your own good rock and paper players. Native balance is awful for pub play, unless you take out the rock and most of the paper and let the scissors slug it out on a Siege server.

[Leshma]

If you want to talk about Native combat mechanics or balance, you should base your arguments on IG_Battlegrounds or competitive play.

That is what I'm trying to tell you all along, people don't play battle, people don't play cRPG, people play this game competitive less than ever. I enjoy huge battles, and if that means I'll have to slay noobs, so be it. But it is a huge siege. Not 35 player EU4 wannabe server.

Since you're not playing cRPG currently, please share with us which competitive game you play atm? Because it seems those are the only kind of games you play.

Edit: I've just been to EU2, it seems currently there is peace treaty going on between half of the players on both sides. None of that shit in native.

[Teeth]

It's hard to defend current crpg balance/mechanics when we lost so much population who couldnt stand the current state

You are still saying that people quit because they dislike the cRPG mechanics while seperating that from general boredom with the game, which is entirely unjustifiable.

Give it another shot, you may fall in love.

Once again, what server are you playing on? If you say NeoGK Siege, allow me to laugh in your face. The only reason that server is fun is because the average cRPG player can rek extremely hard, but aside from the generally bad Native mechanics which I mentioned a few posts back, the server does not have team damage which makes the melee fights and balance objectively horrendous.

That is what I'm trying to tell you all along, people don't play battle, people don't play cRPG, people play this game competitive less than ever. I enjoy huge battles, and if that means I'll have to slay noobs, so be it. But it is a huge siege. Not 35 player EU4 wannabe server.

It's great that you enjoy the server and the big battles, but saying that the combat mechanics or balance of Native are better than cRPG based on that server is something you should not do. Don't make a comparison if you are unwilling to do it properly. You know full well that if we had no team damage and such poor team hit detection on EU 1 or 2 the forums would flood with tears because people get hit by enemies behind other enemies.

And yes, I enjoy competition and competitive games and I am the first to whine about randomness or poor balance in video games as well as boardgames. The only game I somewhat consistently play now is Supreme Commander Forged Alliance and it is a highly competitive and balanced game with hardly any randomness.

[Leshma]

It's great that you enjoy the server and the big battles, but saying that the combat mechanics or balance of Native are better than cRPG based on that server is something you should not do. Don't make a comparison if you are unwilling to do it properly. You know full well that if we had no team damage and such poor team hit detection on EU 1 or 2 the forums would flood with tears because people get hit by enemies behind other enemies.

I know that tears started when they implemented team damage and weapon collision. If I'm not mistaken, Chase was particularly not impressed with that change, I still don't like it.

Tears are connected with nerfs, rarely with buffs (ranged buffs mostly). People find something they could abuse and bam, they nerf it. As Logen wisely said, to be good at warband and crpg you have to abuse flaws in game mechanics. Things best players are good at are nothing but little engine quirks, doubt any of that was planned by developers, except chambering. But without it, game would be boring just like cRPG now is boring.

And yes, I enjoy competition and competitive games and I am the first to whine about randomness or poor balance in video games as well as boardgames.

Also remember you crying about 'everybody can block now', so I'm not so sure you don't enjoy pwning noobs like everybody else and game being unbalanced. You also mention randomness, you can't get any more random than cRPG. Too many variables, server issues, bad implementation of new mechanics. None of that is in native, gameplay in native is very constant and predictable.

[Bronto]

I was wondering how long this thread would last until it went back into the normal topic of every thread. People came, hated changes, and left. Nothing got reverted to make them come back and big surprise archery got nerfed again. Let's make 12 more threads and end up back here again. Please everyone, this is a team effort, if we haven't beaten this horse enough, I don't know what we're doing! I'll start.

Let's make archery weigh more than a full plate warrior wielding a giant piece of steel, now let's make it do no damage, and lastly let's give those scumbags less ammunition. 2h stab is in a great place. xbows, 94 pierce and no extra point requirement, no problems there. OF COURSE throwing kitchen knives does tons of damage, throwing is fine. 1h, who plays with a shield, what a scrub. Polearms, lol, l2b your skey is too strong. Horses...more like spawn raping cunts amirite?

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[Gravoth_iii]

You also mention randomness, you can't get any more random than cRPG. Too many variables, server issues, bad implementation of new mechanics. None of that is in native, gameplay in native is very constant and predictable.

cRPG is definitely not random. Server issues are very uncommon on my part, bad implementations isnt randomness. Variables arent randomness either, you can manipulate pretty much all of them.

You may internet laugh in my internet face all you like lol, NeoGK is fun, has lots of additional content regarding siege equipment and has a good population, crpg servers have none of those things. In any native server if you miss a block *anyone* can kill you, they could be playing for the very first time, in crpg everyone has a ton of health, armour, and the newbies are given inferior everything, crpg is just about as much of an egotistical 'Im so pro i POWN those noobs real hard' as you can get. Aside from the generally bad Crpg mechanics i mentioned a few posts back, the servers do not have any players which makes the melee fights and balance objectively horrendous.

Anyone can kill in crpg aswell, if i miss a block on my agi character i can die in one hit if the other guy is str based. If they are clever they'll just stick with some teammates, and maybe get a last chop on someone. cRPG isnt really 'Im so pro i POWN those noobs real hard', allthough it has gotten more competative as its gotten more balanced and people wanting to get better. Ofcourse some people have that mindset of being scrubdestroyers but it isnt the mods fault and this exists in most games. In native the difference is that people that play are all very casual players, while crpg has a dedicated playerbase, and also a very addictive grind system.

[Teeth]

If we just saw a general decrease in population and people dropping off over time then of course there'd be no connection. The fact we saw a massive increase 2 months ago as so many old-timers came back to try the mod again, and then the population incredibly rapidly dropped to below the levels of pre-patch. That's what i draw this connection from.

We have seen a general decrease ever since late 2011. We went from 500+ to like 120 or less players on primetime at a fairly consistent pace. You state yourself that the amount of players before the patch is the same as the level of after the patch, with the patch only causing a sudden increase. How does that prove that people dislike the route the patch took or the argument you make that they dislike cRPG mechanics in general? There is no loss of players. The patch caused a sudden increase because it concentrates people to play on the same day and because people are curious if the game was changed in a way that would reduce their boredom. Obviously it wasn't, as anyone with a level head could have predicted, so the patch caused only a temporary increase of players entirely explainable through general boredom.

You may internet laugh in my internet face all you like lol, NeoGK is fun, has lots of additional content regarding siege equipment and has a good population, crpg servers have none of those things. In any native server if you miss a block *anyone* can kill you, they could be playing for the very first time, in crpg everyone has a ton of health, armour, and the newbies are given inferior everything, crpg is just about as much of an egotistical 'Im so pro i POWN those noobs real hard' as you can get. Aside from the generally bad Crpg mechanics i mentioned a few posts back, the servers do not have any players which makes the melee fights and balance objectively horrendous.

You probably know this yourself to be true, but if you would magically transfer the NeoGK Siege server to cRPG with it being entirely the same, it would have much less players. NeoGK Siege has players because it is very visible, very accessible and has low average skill. None of these things can be changed for cRPG so saying that Native has superior mechanics and balance because some servers have more players is a stupid argument.

You talk very emphatically and as if you possess some great authority about how superior crpg is, for someone who doesnt play it anymore.

Another terrible argument. Just because I played significantly less in the past year I forgot all about cRPG's mechanics with which I have 3-4k hours experience. Mind you I probably still clocked 100 hours since the revival patch so I know exactly what I am talking about.

Sorry Leshma, I have too much trouble following your lines of argument to address any of your points in a concise manner, and you don't seem to address any of mine.

[karasu]

This discussion is silly.

Facts are that nowadays the majority of warband player base wants casual fun, entering a server with no strings attached, with very forgivable mechanics and same stats/gear to everyone, play one map and quit to do something way more interesting.

Both modes have absolutely retarded mechanic abuse possibilities and no matter how righteous you are, you'll end up doing them eventually, even if not even on purpose, but because the game engine is shit and not only allows it, but forces you to in specific situations.

It's a freakin' old game. Just play whatever the hell you have more fun at (personally I still have way more fun in cRPG for several reasons already stated in this thread (and some others)).

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

The devs sorta tried this. Last Christmas, I think. Or the Christmas before that?

Whenever it was, they let players dick around with something like the original weapons and XP system of the mod for a few weeks. It was retarded and we all quickly remembered why things changed the way they did.

As has been mentioned in other threads, again and again, there are things different between now and then that go beyond simple mechanics: the number of people playing, for one, and the quality of those players. You won't see cRPG be anything like it used to be. The closest you'll get to the old cRPG is when Battlegrounds comes out. Then, if it's successful, you'll see something like the old cRPG, because in addition to a change in mechanics you'll have a change in the playerbase: it'll be bigger and noobier. Put simply, it'll be healthier and more vibrant.

[Rico]

Did someone seriously just accuse hesky of being american?   

Where is he from then? Im just assuming things since i havent seen him on eu.

Haha, almost like being in the same class from elementary school till university and he notices him for the first time
You guys are gold

And yes, I enjoy competition and competitive games and I am the first to whine about randomness or poor balance in video games as well as boardgames. The only game I somewhat consistently play now is Supreme Commander Forged Alliance and it is a highly competitive and balanced game with hardly any randomness.

What's your nickname there?

[Switchtense]

Did someone seriously just accuse hesky of being american?   

(click to show/hide)

I'm hoping there is some kind of inside joke I'm missing here... otherwise... lol.

He is the real Kesh! The other Kesh is just an imposter!

[San]

I liked all eras for different reasons since there was always annoying stuff to deal with. I remember when people were excited for the return of strat in 2011 and it turned about to be just some weird browser thing. I am thankful for balanced crushthrough, polestagger removal, usable 1h right swing, and rolling, though rolling can be abused, turn rate is still too restrictive, and the rewards system is outdated.

My favorite was the WSE2 era because even though I hated the 1st turn rate nerf, it was when the devs were most active with improving the game beyond its normal scope with tons of WSE promises and updates.

Crpg is capable of rolling back to ancient builds, though. That will be interesting. I don't think it will work out well without a lower average skill level, honestly. There were many ways to ensure a kill from a single hit or cav bump.

(click to show/hide)

Whatever the most broken parts of this patch are, if people bring them up with some sort of agreement, I'll make sure to get something done for when the devs decide to patch. Opinions seem to be all over the place or beyond my capabilities to help.

Str:
03-08: 01|-                                 \|00.90%
09-17: 10|----------                     |09.30%
18-20: 19|-------------------      \| 17.60%
21-23: 22|----------------------   | 20.40%
24-26: 22|----------------------   | 20.40%
27-29: 19|-------------------      \|17.60%
30-32: 08|--------                        |07.40%
33-38: 02|--                                 |01.90%
39-44: 01|-                                 \|00.90%
45-99: 04|----                              |03.70%
Total Votes: 108

Agi:
03-08: 06|------                                                                                                |03.90%
09-14: 02|--                                                                                                      |01.30%
15-20: 42|------------------------------------------                                          |27.30%
21-26: 65|-----------------------------------------------------------------      \|42.20%
27-32: 30|------------------------------                                                            |19.50%
33-38: 02|--                                                                                                      |01.30%
39-44: 01|-                                                                                                   \\\|00.60%
45-49: 06|------                                                                                                |03.90%
Total Votes: 153

Builds tend to be spread out evenly, though certain ones are annoying for some. I'm aware of ranged and cav, and imo those naturally weed out extreme/gimmicky builds, but melee seems fine. The overall "power level" of the average unit is perhaps a bit too high, making the experience a little too arcadey, though some will enjoy it and some dislike it. I'm just waiting for next patch mostly since I'm really curious how some changes/new items that were already set will play out.

[Leshma]

If you want to do something to balance things out, I would recommend to make agi builds less lucrative. How would I do it? First, raise item requirements so that builds with 15 and bellow STR cannot use heavy and bulky (long) weapons. Next, buff powerstrike, change wpf formula so that IF affects it more than now (IF*3) and if possible find a way to reduce acceleration gain from extra athletics. Last but not the least, maybe create a new category of armor looms starting from heavier plates (22 weight and up) which will give 7 points to lordly armor. Also raise requirement for that armor category to 27 STR. That could work fine imho and people will again start picking STR oriented builds, not just extreme AGI builds (15/30 seem to be the most popular build on EU1).

Also show some love to archers and xbow, they are underpowered. Throwing is mostly fine, but throwing lances need to be nerfed (back to one ammo per stack).

[Gravoth_iii]

If you want to do something to balance things out, I would recommend to make agi builds less lucrative. How would I do it? First, raise item requirements so that builds with 15 and bellow STR cannot use heavy and bulky (long) weapons. Next, buff powerstrike, change wpf formula so that IF affects it more than now (IF*3) and if possible find a way to reduce acceleration gain from extra athletics. Last but not the least, maybe create a new category of armor looms starting from heavier plates (22 weight and up) which will give 7 points to lordly armor. Also raise requirement for that armor category to 27 STR. That could work fine imho and people will again start picking STR oriented builds, not just extreme AGI builds (15/30 seem to be the most popular build on EU1).

Also show some love to archers and xbow, they are underpowered. Throwing is mostly fine, but throwing lances need to be nerfed (back to one ammo per stack).

Oh god, having played str builds since release of recent patch ranging from 24-30 str, with 1h and 2h, i can already imagine the god i could become with these changes. So far i've found str shielder to be the strongest by far combined with high IF and heavy armor. Not only would it make me into a god, but all builds that may have a slight edge against me would be nerfed so no worries there.

You offer it to me freely? I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!



As for the ranged part, i have some mixed feelings about ranged atm. On one part its fucking useless unless you are a god at aiming, but it still attracts newbies to play it and they really just dont do anything with it. On the other they can be needed to take down cavalry, allthough i would still probably replace them all with infantry if i had that option.