Author Topic: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read  (Read 5339 times)

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Offline San

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"Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« on: November 19, 2014, 05:45:09 pm »
+9
Came across this recently. Provided me an interesting perspective on why people may like/dislike certain changes by using the Spike, Johnny, and Timmy archetypes.

http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/everybody-hates-balance.3514/

Another good quote from that thread:

Quote
    Basically the way the three want to play is like this: Spike just wants to win, Johnny wants to win the game his way, Timmy wants to play the game his way.

    If Johnny tries some weird stuff and he loses he will switch to something else. It's just going to be something weird and random, rather than a dominant strategy (which is what Spike will do). If Timmy plays his way and loses... he will continue to play his way!

    If the game doesn't let him play his way then he will probably quit. If that's because he is completely shut out of the metagame then yeah, he is quitting "because of balance issues". But it's only tangentially related to balance--correlation not causation.

    You're right that he will quit of there is a dominant and boring strategy.

I think the current balance team is dominated by "Johnny" archetypes, where a lot of the dominant strategies were toned down and nuanced play/utilizing the dominant strategy to compete was emphasized. Spike sees everything as "buff" or "nerf" no matter what, Johnny may have lost a fun little gameplan he had before, and Timmy may think that certain aspects may have become stale.

Offline Nightmare798

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 07:53:33 pm »
+2
That is a fancy way of saying overall balance has got better.
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 08:36:18 pm »
+5
I think we can all understand why balancing the entire game around the 2h experience is a bad thing.
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Offline Thryn

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 01:43:35 am »
+4
All I think I really want is just people to stop running as fast as they do.

I also would like level 35 to feel like the old 31 and not like level 35 as well.
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Offline StonedSteel

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 07:13:31 am »
+6
All I think I really want is just people to stop running as fast as they do.

I also would like level 35 to feel like the old 31 and not like level 35 as well.

if crpg went back to the way it was in strat 4 pre tydeus agi patch, id play it daily for hours!

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Offline Rico

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 11:50:40 am »
+10
Unless I have misunderstood some things, the reason for increasing the weight of ranged equipment and decreasing the speed of horse archers is that people shouldn't be able to pick their targets over distance and at the same time outrun others, because that would make them essentially invincible unless they make major player-skill-dependent mistakes.

If this is legitimate reasoning, how comes that the melee class with the highest effective weapon reach is the one who moves the fastest? The only situation where polearm and onehand attacks outrange the twohanded stab or even a Miaodao leftswing is because of terrible footwork of the twohanded user. Yet shielders have additional weight from the shield and polearms are usually heavier than twohanders.

When you play a balanced or strength-based onehanded build, there isn't much you can do against the 18/30 twohanded meta. They have the longer weapon, which means they can hit you while you can't hit back, and they have more athletics than you, which means that they can determine the distance between the two of you, putting the full potential of their longer weapon into practice. It forces onehanders to skill at least 3 more agility than the average twohander and wear lighter armor, but this again means they have 3 less STR and tend to glance against heavy armors and need much more hits to kill the enemy, who can easily afford heaving less STR because the nominal damage on twohanded weapons is higher than on onehanded weapons. The only way for onehanders to compensate their disadvantage is additional focus on hitting vital zones (which is exclusively the head in Warband). The onehanders who pull that off and manage to compensate their weak position in the meta by being better players sometimes encounter surprised reactions of twohanders who sincerely wonder how only four headshots from a paramerion could kill them despite their heavy armor.

The same is true for polearm in comparison to twohand, with the exception that polearms also have high nominal damage and thus don't suffer that much from picking AGI over STR.

It's a waste to blame one side for using the S key and the other side for using the W key, it's just the natural concept of the game. But the illustration given above shows that in order to be able to counter S with W, you need to have more AGI than the S user, which means have less power strike, which hurts onehanders more than other classes. The past has shown that a nerf of backpedaling speed will never happen, but how about making movement speed more dependent on melee weapon length than it currently is?

This would possibly make Timmy come back.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 12:08:53 pm »
0
Does that make me a Johnny archetype? Probably.

Offline AwesomeHail

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 02:49:27 pm »
0
...

Yes, exactly this.

I noticed that i do way better in 1v1 duels with pole than with 1h, just because of the longer reach and the damage output, 18 str is just barely enough these days.. I really have to think about what I am doing, because one hit can easily kill me, with 0 if and around 60 body armour.
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Offline Torost

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 08:08:22 pm »
+1
crpg is now an infantrysimulator , not medieval battle.

guess I am a Timmy. Waiting for mounted thrower class to become playable again :D


Offline Kafein

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 11:51:06 pm »
0
By the way Panuru, all other things equal 1h no shield moves faster than 2h, and that pretty much regardless of weapon weight and length afaik. With a shield though, 1h are the slowest (well except hoplites but you get the idea).

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 03:36:44 am »
0
Pole arms move really slow when you get to the longer weapons like Glaive, Long Voulge, Long Maul, Long Spear, etc.  I don't really know what the guy who wrote an entire essay is talking about.  Also, 1h has almost no turnspeed restriction and pretty much every swing can hit the head, which can be very powerful in the right hands.
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Offline korppis

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 11:46:43 am »
+3
... The past has shown that a nerf of backpedaling speed will never happen, but how about making movement speed more dependent on melee weapon length than it currently is?

This would possibly make Timmy come back.
...

Or heavily bump up the str req on those big ass weapons, as well as for armors. 21 str minimum for greatswords and the like would be good start.

Offline Kadeth

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 04:14:41 am »
+5
It can't be an easy job to balance a mod like this, but I think you guys do a pretty good job (coming from someone who has never played range or cav, mind you).

I've been playing a lot more native lately, and it's interesting how much less complaining there is in the native community about things being OP, needing buffs/nerfs etc. I'm not sure if this is just because patches for native are so few and far between and players have accepted that there will be no change, but either way, native players seem to be more focused on finding ways to adapt, rather than whining until something changes. In native, I rarely see anyone complaining about the 2h stab being OP, even though it's much more powerful than the cRPG 2h stab. People just persevere until they're good at blocking it.

It's a shame that the buff/nerf mindset is so prominent in the cRPG community. I think that players should work a little harder to find ways to counter things that they believe to be OP, and spend time identifying their own weaknesses, rather than blaming game mechanics or weapon balance issues. But that would make life too easy =P

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Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 06:22:31 am »
+2
please bring back ladders thanks
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Offline HappyPhantom

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 07:27:28 am »
0
Agree with Goris,  after arrow damage is un-nerfed,  of course.
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