[Blizzard] Overwatch

[Ujin]

Yeah, but I fucking despise rock-paper-scissors balancing for FPS games, where the devs artificially limit the skill ceiling. Getting pretty turned off by Overwatch lately, the whole design philosophy is basically to make it as easily accessible for casuals as possible and to limit the skill ceiling to stop anyone from being too good.

The whole game is designed around different characters being either stronger or weaker against certain other characters, encouraging players to switch between characters during the match. But it's still not as bad as you make it sound imo, although the characters are split between different roles, doesn't mean you can't be creative and be a decent damage dealer as a support for example. It's still an fps and your aim/skill/movement etc really determine a lot of your success.

[Butan]

Turrets and sentries = IMBA.
Genji has highest skill ceiling from what I've seen, but could profit from a slight increase in damage output (especially his ultimate).

I'm playing Roadhog mostly now. The grapple can reach far, only need to aim a bit, rest of his skills are easy to spam and get kills    Will probably switch to Zarya when I'm tired of easy hero.

[Xant]

The whole game is designed around different characters being either stronger or weaker against certain other characters, encouraging players to switch between characters during the match. But it's still not as bad as you make it sound imo, although the characters are split between different roles, doesn't mean you can't be creative and be a decent damage dealer as a support for example. It's still an fps and your aim/skill/movement etc really determine a lot of your success.

It's worse than TF2, and TF2 was pretty bad in that regard.

Not saying Overwatch is an awful game, it's well designed and pretty sure it'll be a success, it just doesn't scratch my hardcore skillbased FPS itch.

[Necrorave]

Yeah, but I fucking despise rock-paper-scissors balancing for FPS games, where the devs artificially limit the skill ceiling. Getting pretty turned off by Overwatch lately, the whole design philosophy is basically to make it as easily accessible for casuals as possible and to limit the skill ceiling to stop anyone from being too good.

To be honest, Blizzard has been heading in this direction for a while now.

Also, a TF2 type arcade shooter with a MOBA inspired skill system is bound to be Casual

Although, I wouldn't say there is a skill ceiling.  Its like any other shooter, but with some skills to make it enjoyable for anyone who is not as "Good" as the next player.  Yet, if you are quick on the draw, know your hero, and have decent coordination.  You will best most players on the field regardless.

While there is an obvious form of Rock Paper Scissor classes, I never got that feeling playing the game.  Its really only when I think about the concept of the different characters where I start to notice the counters.

Although, is any class system free from that?  Everything has a counter to it, or at least it should in an arcade shooter like this.

[Xant]

Like I said, Tribes: Ascend had a pretty good class system. Or you could go all the way back to Enemy Territory.

[Vibe]

I think the skill ceiling is high enough to make esport scene flourish. It's a combination of fps and strategy with team composition, combo plays, etc. That doesn't mean that just the fps skill ceiling is much lower. It just means that it isn't enough for players in a team to have a combined aim skill to prevail games as in the typical shooter, you also need to know the heroes, counters, what maps they go along with, compositions and all the strategy that comes with it. If such a game fits one person is obviously another case, some like that only aim matters.

But in anything but high skill matches people are gonna be like: "it's just a rock-paper-scissors game, this guy was worse than me but he only beat me because his class beats mine".
I'm not saying that this is some difficult FPS to get into, Blizzard games are known for being appealing to newcomers, it's just how they do. But it's a FPS, the skill ceiling is basically limitless. I've been beaten by heroes my hero naturally counters in OW very hard already. But like I said, I don't think we'll actually feel the hardcore skill come into play until very high skill level matches, due to how Blizzard likes to make their games approachable.

[Butan]

I think the skill ceiling is high enough to make esport scene flourish. It's a combination of fps and strategy with team composition, combo plays, etc. That doesn't mean that just the fps skill ceiling is much lower. It just means that it isn't enough for players in a team to have a combined aim skill to prevail games as in the typical shooter, you also need to know the heroes, counters, what maps they go along with, compositions and all the strategy that comes with it. If such a game fits one person is obviously another case, some like that only aim matters.

But in anything but high skill matches people are gonna be like: "it's just a rock-paper-scissors game, this guy was worse than me but he only beat me because his class beats mine".
I'm not saying that this is some difficult FPS to get into, Blizzard games are known for being appealing to newcomers, it's just how they do. But it's a FPS, the skill ceiling is basically limitless. I've been beaten by heroes my hero naturally counters in OW very hard already. But like I said, I don't think we'll actually feel the hardcore skill come into play until very high skill level matches, due to how Blizzard likes to make their games approachable.

That + the game is pretty new, the people need to adapt and think deep for the couple next weeks before coming up with "muh skill ceiling" 

[Xant]

It's pretty simple.

For a high skill ceiling, either everyone has to have lethal weapons and you can kill everyone very fast, or everyone needs to have high mobility/other defensive shit that lets them survive 1v2 encounters against people that can aim. DayZ, Insurgency, CS, CoD, are all examples of the former. Tribes, Quake, Painkiller, TF2 to an extent, are examples of the latter. Overwatch makes sure to limit each class so that they're A) either fucked in a 1v2+ encounter against skilled players or B) don't have enough damage to realistically deal with certain classes.

Then there are some lame ultimates that can kill you pretty much out of nowhere, in the spirit of TF2 criticals. When TF2 was in its prime, I played with the best EU team. When Tribes: Ascend was in its prime, I played with the second best EU team. Played in a dozen of the best CoD1 RO teams, etc. And in Insurgency I'm banned for aimbotting and wallhacking from the only servers that are still populated. Which is to say, I'm really good in different FPS games, and I can see where the skill ceiling potential is without playing it for 200 hours. Overwatch has enough of a skill component in it to have an esports scene, but we'll see. It's like Dota 2 and TF2 met halfway, in more than one way.

[Vibe]

You're talking about pure FPS skill ceiling, sure we can say that OW has a skill ceiling in terms that you can't solo vs multiple opponents with as much ease as you can in other pure shooters (you still can though). But that doesn't mean the overall skill ceiling is lower. Now you have abilities, ultimates and hero compositions to consider, more ephasys on teamplay. It's a combination of shooter skill ceiling with strategy skill ceiling (moba like, you could say), that's what I mean. Again, whether that is your type of porn, is another issue. So to an extent I do agree with you.

However about ultimates killing you out of nowhere, I disagree. Most are really obvious coupled with the really loud voicelines by enemy heroes. Really easy to predict. I honestly can't point out one ultimate that is that hard to dodge.

[Xant]

Well yes, you're right, if you look at it from the perspective of team vs team there's a high skill ceiling. Kind of like in Dota 2, you might not notice a massive difference between a pub star's individual skill when playing a hero and the best team's carry player, but when it comes to team vs team there's a huge difference.

The ultimate thing is in part because I don't know what each one does yet, but things like Hanzo's ultimate seem pretty gay - super easy to dodge the vast majority of time, but sometimes you get eaten by a dragon when rounding a corner. And how do you deal with Reaper's ult?

[Vibe]

The ultimate thing is in part because I don't know what each one does yet, but things like Hanzo's ultimate seem pretty gay - super easy to dodge the vast majority of time, but sometimes you get eaten by a dragon when rounding a corner. And how do you deal with Reaper's ult?

You can kill Reaper while he's in ult, he moves slow, you also kinda have to keep an eye on where he is. He can't jump in as efficiently as other heroes. Teleport is slow and he moves slow. The only way his ult pays off if he gets a grand surprise.

[Necrorave]

Hanzo's ult also does increments of damage within the area.

You can escape it, but you just have very little time to do so.

I will say that his ult has too large of a AOE effect though.  Its like waiting for a train to pass.

Maybe shorten the dragon's length a bit and it wwould be perfect.

Hanzo isnt an easy character to play, so his ult should be satisfying.

Pharah on the other hand...

[Vibe]

Hanzo's ult is basically area denial.

[Jarlek]

Reaper seems to be one of those characters that are super easy to counter, but you HAVE to counter him. The moment he is ignored/is underestimated he can fuck up half your team, especially with his ult. Glass cannon deluxe.

Also: pigbelly chillest char or pigbelly bestest char?

[Xant]

Ironically enough, Reaper is probably my favorite character right now.

He has damage, mobility and survivability.