Arrows Complaint Wine thread

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Currently the most viable build i tried with an archer is 30 15, the accuracy is even better then pre-patch 18 21 and you at least do some damage. With 5 ath though you are completely useless in melee. Oh and btw guys with higher armour usually take at least 3 headshots to kill.

While at the same time, all other builds received a huge buff and and now every tin can is faster then you (even with a 18 24 build). Because it's an stf, 18 27 proved to be not a good build since you only have 2 PS.

I've got a 21/21 tincan and the most damage I've take with a head shot to my 60 armour helmet was almost a half. It's totally pathetic. I then just guarded my face with my gauntlets and ran at him and his body shots did pretty much nothing.

Current archer meta game is about stunning people in melee combot to try give your guy the advantage since you can't even hurt other archers there's no point in even trying to shut the other teams archers down. My armour is piss low and I still take 5+ arrows to get dropped so I just ignore it and go about my business.

I just wish I had a respec so I could go horse thrower, that shit would be brutal.

[Algarn]

Thanks for the responses. I think I underestimated the amount of increase in armor. We had to be careful for any possible extreme builds popping up that may dominate the server. I believe that the concept of increased weight won't change since it promotes unhealthy play, even though it punishes those who don't really intend to play that way. I do think that ammo levels should be at a comfortable level, though, but below a point where it's exploited (I have a problem with 3 stacks personally).

Overall, I'm seeing:
-Damage back: likely to be a steady increase vs. all at once if it passes.
-Ammo back: likely if damage potential for current builds are very lackluster.

From the perspective of an archer, what would be good ways to make 10-11ath kiting builds less attractive? Archers can only be slowed down so much before it hurts the average build too much and make only the extreme builds viable. I'm a fan of arrows being 2 slot with more arrows per quiver, but it has a number of downsides for hybrids/weapon choice. There's still a lot that's wait and see, but I think a small bump may be a decent first step as archers adapt to balanced builds and strength leans becoming more viable.

Can't imagine a build like 18/30 to be really viable, except to level 37 already. Then, he would have to sacrifice everything for some ATHL, whereas the whole server is much faster than before while wearing more armor (-> less damage than other archers since target's armor is higher and almost no difference with melee players when it comes at running speed). An "hybrid build" with 18/27 would be far better, since the wpf difference between 10 WM full archery and 9 WM archery + 50 wpf in 1h + PS creates no difference with a bow, but adds survability.

[Algarn]

Algarn, havent you paid any attention to what the heavy-armour wearing 8+ athletics players have been saying every time we suggested increasing armour difficulty, 'armour totally negates athletics', therefore if you and everyone else think that people are running faster in servers now it's just your imagination...

If everyone else agrees with you that there are way too many agi-whores in heraldic trans and higher armour, then it is also their imagination because such a build is 100% *not* viable because armour 100% negates athletics and on an unrelated note I think that agility could use a buff, also nerf damage on ranged, if anyone disagrees with me they're trying to kill variety in this mod! Those many many varied 21/24 builds or similar...

Seems legit that you don't run faster than before while wearing a rus scale armor with 8 ahl 

[Kalp]

Also buff agility

No, please not this again 

[Templar_Steevee]

I also have 2h alt Gangtroll 27/15 and archers have bigger chances to kill me in melee than by arrows. everything up to horn bow is like mosquito, it bites, but who cares (60 body armor)
mor annoying is a fact that my animations are stopped than dmg taken.
Also hardly ever HS are taking more than 1/3 of my hp, but everyone knows, when you recive a shot everyone are starting brakedancing, so HS twice more is mostly pure luck

[Cup1d]

Any sense to revive my archer\2h hybrid? Well, I can wait for another year or two.

10 arrows per quiver? Make quiver 0 slot then. This 1kg arrows is just a joke now. Arrow that weigh more than 4 daggers, well done guys.

[sir_Ady]

I spent many generations as an archer (well did not become one of the good ones, though ) and tbh I'm not that angry as some of my fellow archers - well, it's still hard to accept that I can't kill tincans anymore, but I can live with it..
I think archery's role is about to change if all this stays as it is. I went for killing heroes but realised it's hardly possible (I hit a winged helmet guy: 5 headshots (!!!), 2 bodyshots (with mw bow and tatar arrows, pd6), and he kept moving).

Now I'm about to support melee more, remaining close to them and trying to hit agi people sneaking behind them or archers hunting for them from afar... at least I can kill them with a few shots as ammo saving is important now (just realized how good an mw bow with tatar arrows are in that) while having a ~50 body armor + some IF helps me soaking more shots than before. took 6 ps some (well 31 )wpf in 2handed (I like langes messer as a 1 slot 2 hander) just in case fight gets closer as I can't escape with ath 8 (18/24 build). I'm making the same (sh*tty ) scores and K/D as before but rather enjoy it especially my melee kills or when I die but can delay 3-4 melee at a time...

if intention was to increase the support role of archery against the concept of individual archer heroes - it works well atm, at least for average archers like me... Archers with previous k/D of 5-7+ may experience a big drop in their scores and K/D, though

still one thing to whine about longbow seems much less usable now - slow as hell with very slow projectiles causing about the same damage as a bow. I stopped using it atm but would be happy to use again.. Think that accuracy should be significantly lowered with a major buff in damage at close range and missile speed may be even with a PD req increase.

[sir_Ady]

long story short:
as archery in crpg is about adaptability, now we are facing: slowed down by quiver weight, less ammo, less damage... To counter this: let's wear heavier armor, shoot from closer range to maximize hit ratio and damage

[Molly]

Thanks for the responses. I think I underestimated the amount of increase in armor. We had to be careful for any possible extreme builds popping up that may dominate the server. I believe that the concept of increased weight won't change since it promotes unhealthy play, even though it punishes those who don't really intend to play that way. I do think that ammo levels should be at a comfortable level, though, but below a point where it's exploited (I have a problem with 3 stacks personally).

Overall, I'm seeing:
-Damage back: likely to be a steady increase vs. all at once if it passes.
-Ammo back: likely if damage potential for current builds are very lackluster.

From the perspective of an archer, what would be good ways to make 10-11ath kiting builds less attractive? Archers can only be slowed down so much before it hurts the average build too much and make only the extreme builds viable. I'm a fan of arrows being 2 slot with more arrows per quiver, but it has a number of downsides for hybrids/weapon choice. There's still a lot that's wait and see, but I think a small bump may be a decent first step as archers adapt to balanced builds and strength leans becoming more viable.

Can't we keep the archery damage as it is for a couple of days longer before anything is decided?
I have 18 Str, 5IF in ranged leather and die to 3 arrows. That doesn't seem low damage to me. 2h heroes need 2 hits. Not much of a gap honestly.

[agweber]

Can't we keep the archery damage as it is for a couple of days longer before anything is decided?

I do agree with letting things roll for a week before the final verdict. I was playing probably 80% on my archer pre-patch. Tried the patch out last night and was doing so little damage (+3 Nomad/+0 Tatar) to unarmored horses (my main target) that I got fed up with it and got on my main. If things don't end up changing so that I can at least kill off Rounceys I'll probably change my archer over to some xbow build.

After seeing what builds were around while on my archer I decided to try out a 10/36 shortspear/hunt-xbow build on my main. Works pretty well for cav-hunting and now I kite considerably more than I ever did on my archer. I expect way more of these builds to start showing up when other archers start giving up on being able to dish out any damage.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

(click to show/hide)

I spent many generations as an archer (well did not become one of the good ones, though ) and tbh I'm not that angry as some of my fellow archers - well, it's still hard to accept that I can't kill tincans anymore, but I can live with it..
I think archery's role is about to change if all this stays as it is. I went for killing heroes but realised it's hardly possible (I hit a winged helmet guy: 5 headshots (!!!), 2 bodyshots (with mw bow and tatar arrows, pd6), and he kept moving).

Now I'm about to support melee more, remaining close to them and trying to hit agi people sneaking behind them or archers hunting for them from afar... at least I can kill them with a few shots as ammo saving is important now (just realized how good an mw bow with tatar arrows are in that) while having a ~50 body armor + some IF helps me soaking more shots than before. took 6 ps some (well 31 )wpf in 2handed (I like langes messer as a 1 slot 2 hander) just in case fight gets closer as I can't escape with ath 8 (18/24 build). I'm making the same (sh*tty ) scores and K/D as before but rather enjoy it especially my melee kills or when I die but can delay 3-4 melee at a time...

if intention was to increase the support role of archery against the concept of individual archer heroes - it works well atm, at least for average archers like me... Archers with previous k/D of 5-7+ may experience a big drop in their scores and K/D, though

still one thing to whine about longbow seems much less usable now - slow as hell with very slow projectiles causing about the same damage as a bow. I stopped using it atm but would be happy to use again.. Think that accuracy should be significantly lowered with a major buff in damage at close range and missile speed may be even with a PD req increase.

The trouble andy is that now you don't do damage against other archers either. It took a guy with an mw horn bow 5 shots to get me almost dead then someone ran me over with a horse while I was using my dedicated archer.

Can't we keep the archery damage as it is for a couple of days longer before anything is decided?
I have 18 Str, 5IF in ranged leather and die to 3 arrows. That doesn't seem low damage to me. 2h heroes need 2 hits. Not much of a gap honestly.

You were practically no armour molly (I'm guess 30-35). Also the long bow is much less of an issue than the rest of the bows which now are mostly just fire wood.

IMO longbow should be 31 dmg like in the bad old good old days and the yumi should be 25 and then you go back one point at a time down to the nomad bow at 21 and the short bow also at 21.

Make the bow 26 and the rus bow 28.

Problem, mostly solved. If they did that and made them less accurate they could probably keep the ammo some what low.

----

Random idea

Make quivers 2 slot but put the bodkins at 25 shots and then go up from there.

Then make the short bow a 0 slot bow.

[Artemis13]

On the issue of people running at various speeds, armor, agility, and the weight of arrows, I can only offer the following observation:

At 24 agi, medium light armor, my archer mostly can't outrun dudes in plate armor wielding halberds.

Something not really okay with that from my perspective - though I'm sure melee folks are happy with it.

[Azuma]

(click to show/hide)

The trouble andy is that now you don't do damage against other archers either. It took a guy with an mw horn bow 5 shots to get me almost dead then someone ran me over with a horse while I was using my dedicated archer.

You were practically no armour molly (I'm guess 30-35). Also the long bow is much less of an issue than the rest of the bows which now are mostly just fire wood.

IMO longbow should be 31 dmg like in the bad old good old days and the yumi should be 25 and then you go back one point at a time down to the nomad bow at 21 and the short bow also at 21.

Make the bow 26 and the rus bow 28.

Problem, mostly solved. If they did that and made them less accurate they could probably keep the ammo some what low.

----

Random idea

Make quivers 2 slot but put the bodkins at 25 shots and then go up from there.

Then make the short bow a 0 slot bow.

GADAMITE I LOVE U

[Kafein]

Bodkins should not weigh 8 and only have 10 arrows per
same goes with the rest of the arrows some players can take more then 10 shots to kills them
gotta love how you nerfed bows more aswell

get a shield lol

[Jona]

I did some archery damage testing with Zlotz in NA3 to help him pick a new build. I was his target, and my build has 18 str, 4 IF. We stood still roughly 15m apart (not sure if range has any impact on damage, I suspect not) and he shot me in the torso only. His arrows were always in a tight cluster, so he was most likely always hitting the same hitbox. He was testing a 21-24 build with maxed PD and WM, and he used +3 bodkins and  +3 long bow (or maybe a +3 rus bow... I forget). We ran the test twice, the difference being him having 7 IF or 0 IF. His gear was light, so the impact on wpf was minimal, and it didn't actually change the results on my end much at all, it only allowed him to aim the slightest bit better since he had maybe 5-10 more wpf when he had maxed IF.

My gear:   

Test 1) +3 light kuyak, +3 wisby gauntlets, body armor total: 57
Test 2) +3 rus scale armor, +3 wisby gauntlets, body armor total: 64
Test 3) +3 leather ranger armor, +3 leather gloves, body armor total: 35

Results:

1) It took a total of 4 arrows to kill me. I had only a tiny sliver of health left after the 3rd arrow.
2) Once again it took 4 arrows to kill me. I had much more health after the 3rd arrow this time around, yet each arrow did the slightest bit over a quarter of my health, so 4 arrows was still all it took to do me in.
3) It took 3 arrows to kill me, but I had at most 1/10 of my health left after the 2nd arrow hit me.


It doesn't seem all that different than pre-patch for me. Before the patch I had 2 more IF, and in battle I noticeably take more damage from archers. I get the "stunned" animation almost 40-50% of the time now, as opposed to almost only on headshots. That said, I also have 1 more athletics and 3 more agi than before, so maybe I am simply running straight into arrows at higher speeds... doubtful, but still possible.

Unless wpf gives a huge buff to archery damage, I think all of you 10 PD guys are grossly over-exaggerating the damage nerf, since someone with 7 PD can seemingly do just as much damage as, if not more than, someone who had 6 PD before.


Although yes, I am nothing but an agi my old friend who typically uses light-er armor, hopefully this helps give some perspective.