0.4.0.0 - The patch of destiny

[Keshian]

"Man, having 4 pd and being able to kite everyone sure is underpowered, we should buff this more so more people kite."
Tydeus on NA1 after he went a 9-5 k/d and decent score while spending half of that map with a knobbed mace out (great that you can melee well with 13 athletics and a knobbed mace) even though map before he went 1-5 and 15 score and the map after that went 0-3 with mw tatar bow and mw bodkins.  5-4 as one of the ebst NA archers (but shittiest item balancer) the following map with MW bow and MW bokdins - similar in damage to MW longbow. 

Will give you props - no archer in the history of this game ran away as much as i saw you did - 3 minutes of every round running as far as you could to get away just to get squeak even one more shot even though last player alive desperate just to try to prove how "right" you are with your shitty anecdotal "proof."  No one is that desperate to get a high score they will cross the entire map running away (support and help your team win - fuck that right! as long as you can prove how right you are by shitty anecdotes)

This is why I don't want you fucking up archery like you fuck up every class.  No one denies you are one of the better na archers - we are talking about balancing this for the average player you idiot.  Just because you can have 1 good map as a good archer and meleer doesn't mean its somehow not underpowered. 

Also, your anecdotal self-play crap as one of the best na archers is exactly why you are complete shit as an item balancer in every adjustment you made.  Would be like San getting on a shield and sword going his usual 27-3 and saying 1h is OP we need to cut damage by 2/3rds.  San at least uses actual evidence of damage thresholds and listens to the community, you - Tydeus complete shit just rely on waht you like and feels good to you.

P.S.  Dev team, Please keep reverting all item balance changes by tydeus
Thank you, the community.

[HappyPhantom]

Unfortunately - whether I agree or not - I don't think this type of argument is going to help your (our) cause. Is Tydeus big enough to ignore the snark and objectively look at archery from an average player perspective, I don't know.

The fact that pretty much only Kesh's complaints against archery nerfs are getting responses (and not in the "oh sure good point Kesh" way), I don't hold out much hope.

Sigh.

Luckily we're coming into summer down south, and I might be able to break my crack habit (yeah, right).

Edit: I don't mean to imply any of Kesh's points are good (I'll keep my thoughts about those to myself).

[Tydeus]

Here's the issue you're not understanding. Playstyles that can endlessly kite, will not be allowed to have the killing potential of other classes.

Period. End of discussion. This isn't a balance decision. This is a game design decision. You saw it with the recent HA nerfs, you saw it 3 years ago when kiting was initially killed off and then again when ammo weights were increased. I'm sorry.

We will have to find some other way to make low pd playstyles more enjoyable, if people no longer find them fun, that isn't increased damage. I'm going over high PD atm on my stf, and I'll be switching back to lower PD tomorrow morning or the next day to play with low pop. I told San in irc that higher ammo should be on the table, but it can't really be discussed without looking at the other end of the spectrum, as well as in-between. We can talk about other stuff after I've thoroughly explored things.

[Thomek]

Some actual points unfortunately bathed in poison.

Keep it up Kesh. You do understand there would be no balancers, no patch, no nothing if it were not for him? No one gets paid for doing this stuff. That tone is just childish rant. Please man and grow up yourself before you ask anyone else to do so. I'm sure you could be a balancer yourself if it wasn't for your cuntish attitude.

Yeah, I do understand some archers have been nerfed and people have to adapt. That's why free respecs. Do you also expect everything to go smoothly while bumping everyone up 2+ levels? Take a chill pill and wait, or: simply formulate yourself in a less obonxious manner.

Keep it up, and you can shout out for changes and there will be no one to hear. People are doing this for free, for their love of the mod and their good heart.

Funny, I thought people would grow up a bit during these 4 years..

[Clockworkkiller]

Patch is shit, mod still crap rip crpg

[Keshian]

Here's the issue you're not understanding. Playstyles that can endlessly kite, will not be allowed to have the killing potential of other classes.

Period. End of discussion. This isn't a balance decision. This is a game design decision. You saw it with the recent HA nerfs, you saw it 3 years ago when kiting was initially killed off and then again when ammo weights were increased. I'm sorry.

We will have to find some other way to make low pd playstyles more enjoyable, if people no longer find them fun, that isn't increased damage. I'm going over high PD atm on my stf, and I'll be switching back to lower PD tomorrow morning or the next day to play with low pop. I told San in irc that higher ammo should be on the table, but it can't really be discussed without looking at the other end of the spectrum, as well as in-between. We can talk about other stuff after I've thoroughly explored things.

They don't, not even remotely.  Just because you as one of the Top na archers can abuse more than any other player in this game in some attempt to prove your position doesnt mean that 99% of the playerbase can do the same thing.  None of the gear and builds give any archer even half the killing potential of any melee class.  Thast the point, the typical Crpg player who wants to play ranged isn't just less effective than melee, theya re completely useless and just a way to farm valour now for the rest of us.  I kept getting stuck on same team as you with archer-eater 11 athletics low powerstrike build with blue gambeson shielder, otherwise I would have fed off your build too.

You are measuring like watching rohy get 30-3 score with long maul or san getting 27-2 with nieuwadao.  Based on anecdotes like that you should nerf those weapons by 15& damage like you did with archers.  Tydeus way of testing and analyzing doesnt take the community into account or any tested reliable data.  Its him doing slightly above average on some maps and really abd on other maps with archery as one of the best NA archers.  Just think how fucked up it is for new players who play archery or average skill players??  Think beyond your own interests.

Also, Tydeus those same builds were available pre-patch with maybe 1 less thletics, but then everyone else typically ahd 1 less athletics.  yet you never saw the crap youw ere doing on the server to the extreme to try and prove "high agility kiting archers should not be able to kill anyone" - they dont because the vast majority who have played that class dont do much damage even before patch, just because you get a high number of headshots (i heard from admins the aimhack is allowed because it can't be tracked user-side) with mw bodkins doesnt mean the average archer can do the same.  The lst is very short of people that 1) can do what you were doing successfully and 2) care so little about teamplay and support and helping win that will make sure alst player alive in order to prove how "not underpowered" the class is.

[Thomek]

Kesh, there's also the EU perspective.

We've had waves of archers (and HA) killing the server. Every time ranged gets buffed up to a reasonably good level they multiply like rabbits. 4 years of experience show that, and it should be pretty clear to everyone by now.

I'm not saying there's not room for a buff. (I'm not a balancer.) Just that it cannot be allowed to be 100% fairly balanced. That's my opinion of course.

Now I still see good archers topping the board. Bagge cleaned the table yesterday on his STF.. The ones that got a bit shafted were the 2h hybrid archers with proper 2handers.

[Tydeus]

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They don't, not even remotely.  Just because you as one of the Top na archers can abuse more than any other player in this game in some attempt to prove your position doesnt mean that 99% of the playerbase can do the same thing.  None of the gear and builds give any archer even half the killing potential of any melee class.  Thast the point, the typical Crpg player who wants to play ranged isn't just less effective than melee, theya re completely useless and just a way to farm valour now for the rest of us.  I kept getting stuck on same team as you with archer-eater 11 athletics low powerstrike build with blue gambeson shielder, otherwise I would have fed off your build too.

You are measuring like watching rohy get 30-3 score with long maul or san getting 27-2 with nieuwadao.  Based on anecdotes like that you should nerf those weapons by 15& damage like you did with archers.  Tydeus way of testing and analyzing doesnt take the community into account or any tested reliable data.  Its him doing slightly above average on some maps and really abd on other maps with archery as one of the best NA archers.  Just think how fucked up it is for new players who play archery or average skill players??  Think beyond your own interests.

Also, Tydeus those same builds were available pre-patch with maybe 1 less thletics, but then everyone else typically ahd 1 less athletics.  yet you never saw the crap youw ere doing on the server to the extreme to try and prove "high agility kiting archers should not be able to kill anyone" - they dont because the vast majority who have played that class dont do much damage even before patch, just because you get a high number of headshots (i heard from admins the aimhack is allowed because it can't be tracked user-side) with mw bodkins doesnt mean the average archer can do the same.  The lst is very short of people that 1) can do what you were doing successfully and 2) care so little about teamplay and support and helping win that will make sure alst player alive in order to prove how "not underpowered" the class is.

Before, they were available only by high level characters, not skip the fun characters. Now, they're available to everyone with a STF. 12/33 using a 27 damage bow, is able to outrun the vast majority of players at the moment, especially with more people getting higher amounts of str and either staying the same, or reducing their agility. What's worse, with those bows I was accurate enough that I wouldn't have even had to stay at full WM, given one level, at least, I could have easily turned it into either 12/36 or 15/33 for an even better kiter/deadlier build. Throw level 38 at someone, and you don't even have to sacrifice WM to do this. Hell, you can pick up PS or IF if you want.

[HappyPhantom]

Before, they were available only by high level characters, not skip the fun characters. Now, they're available to everyone with a STF. 12/33 using a 27 damage bow, is able to outrun the vast majority of players at the moment, especially with more people getting higher amounts of str and either staying the same, or reducing their agility. What's worse, with those bows I was accurate enough that I wouldn't have even had to stay at full WM, given one level, at least, I could have easily turned it into either 12/36 or 15/33 for an even better kiter/deadlier build. Throw level 38 at someone, and you don't even have to sacrifice WM to do this. Hell, you can pick up PS or IF if you want.

I'm confused, why would you go 12/33 as an archer?

What's the actual like for like damage with a 21/21 or 24/21? (wpf vs PD).

I was under the impression I needed high str archer to do highest damage, not agi archer... ?

[Tydeus]

I'm confused, why would you go 12/33 as an archer?

What's the actual like for like damage with a 21/21 or 24/21? (wpf vs PD).

I was under the impression I needed high str archer to do highest damage, not agi archer... ?

Read my past few posts in this thread, as well as some of kesh's eariler ones. I'm going over all of archery atm, it's just a coincidence that I started with agility.

[Jona]

Can confirm that agi archer does sufficient damage to 1-hit kill teammates. 

[BlindGuy]

Tydeus make the sheathed bows fucking unusable on foot or carry some amssive weight, look at that ugly shit, noone would ever have that.

[SP1N]

Tydeus took me out from half-health with one arrow to the chest. I have 21 STR / 7 IF post-patch with 57 body armor.
I'm not sure which build he was testing at the time, but from a piker's perspective:

pls don't rebuff ranged. pls.



unrelated note:

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Why is the Pike's thumbnail not showing up on the website? Please tell me a rainbow-banded retexture is in store.

[San]

I believe he may have been 30-18 at the time.

[Artemis13]

All most of us have are personal experiences and perspectives, unless we have code in front of us. So that's all I've got to give, here.

I'm a very optimistic sort of gameplayer. Played online games since the BBS days, tabletop before that. I've been staff, paid and unpaid, and a player in just about everything. I take a lot of stuff in stride and I trust that staff generally is just trying their best. I've not ever given up on any previous patch to CRPG, but just tried to play better. In fact, I've never rage-quit any game, never said "I'm taking my friends and GOING HOME" in over 20 years.

This patch hurts so bad, I am waiting to play until I see a new 'update your launcher' notice. It's just so demoralizing, and even though I've played and played and played to see what I could do with it, it just makes me feel like the archer class is currently not functional for most people. "Most" includes me, as I have no illusions of heroics.