Nerf Agi and Make Ironflesh Useful

[Phew]

Speed bonuses are easily changed in the server settings file in the module folder (Module.ini? I'm not on my desktop.), it's right there along with armor soak values, flinching from damage thresholds, which brf files to load, etc.

Ah, cool. In that case, is the current equation a linear function of relative closing speed, or squared function? I'm assuming squared, since that's the physical relationship for kinetic energy. i.e. Bonus=A*V^2 where A is some factor and V is the relative velocity between attacker and defender.

If it's indeed squared, my suggestion would be to test a higher power, like 3-4, with the factor reduced so that speed bonus on a fast-ish horse remains unaffected:
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[Huscarlton_Banks]

raw_damage *= math.pow(melee_damage_speed_power, speed_bonus)

You can use this JavaScript sample to get an idea of what kind of multiplier you'll get.

http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/tryit.asp?filename=tryjsref_pow

Set speed_bonus zero for neutral speed bonus (both players standing still)

Set melee_damage_speed_power to 1 to completely nullify speed bonus effects on damage no matter how high speed_bonus % is (think this is how ranged is set up right now).

I have no idea what speed_bonus actually translates to in real units, but it differs for pretty much every attack animation, so you'll have to set up crpg attack animations + wse in your own module to find them out.

[Kafein]

You'd need to be 33 or 36 str for a 33% HP increase, it's more likely that the bonus will be between 20.00-27.11%.

3 STR : 38 base (+2 from IF = 40, 5.26% HP increase from investment)
6 STR : 41 base (+4 from IF = 45, 10.25% HP increase from investment)
9 STR : 44 base (+6 from IF = 50, 13.63% HP increase from investment)
12 STR: 47 base (+8 from IF = 55, 17.02% HP increase from investment)
15 STR: 50 base (+10 from IF = 60, 20.00% HP increase from investment)
18 STR: 53 base (+12 from IF = 65, 22.64% HP increase from investment)
21 STR: 56 base (+14 from IF = 70, 25.00% HP increase from investment)
24 STR: 59 base (+16 from IF = 75, 27.11% HP increase from investment)
27 STR: 62 base (+18 from IF = 80, 29.03% HP increase from investment)
30 STR: 65 base (+20 from IF = 85, 30.76% HP increase from investment)
33 STR: 68 base (+22 from IF = 90, 32.35% HP increase from investment)
36 STR: 71 base (+24 from IF = 95, 33.80% HP increase from investment)

I did notice that I need more swings to take people down in EU1, but I always just thought it was a bad timing due to latency thing, I guess the average armor level might be higher in EU1. NA1 also tends to be fairly heavy on 45+ cut weapons and/or pierce/blunt weapons, I didn't really pay attention to the melee weapons on EU1, was distracted by the greater volumes of ranged.

45-49c weapons deal over 20 damage with a bad hold and zero speed bonus with 21/21 vs 65 armor. Something like a +3 morningstar/+3 bec doesn't even need a hold or speed bonus to do 20+ most of the time. Chances are there are a lot of times where people take a crapload of overkill on the last strike, and the extra HP will do nothing after the first extra hit.

In NA1, I'd say anything above Rus Scale/Pronoia could probably be considered unusually heavy, to the point where whenever I see an armor with plate in the name I immediately assume it's one of maybe ~4 people (leman, dutchydave, oralroberts, firebus), whenever I see transitional armor I immediately assume it's King_James_of_Acre, and whenever I see black armor I assume it's Devilize or his clone buddy.

Generally I only need 4-5 non-held, non-glancing strikes max to take down the heaviest armored people on NA1 with a +3 Liuyedao (6 PS, 173 effective WPF) when I aim at the feet/head, less hits if I bother to use holds or if I decide to use a steel pick instead.

I deal around ~15 damage on leg strikes vs +3 trans + +3 shynbaulds (65 armor total) after suboptimal but positive speed bonuses (8 ath strafes) + really badly timed holds. On a properly held head strike with a good speed bonus I'll easily deal way past 20-25++ damage on ~55 head armors.

With a +3 steel pick I do ~18-20+ damage with a badly held strike and zero speed bonus on a leg swing vs the armor above, haven't tested head hits.

These aren't very high numbers since 1h tends to deal much less damage than 2h/polearms, but they're high enough that they create many instances where extra HP from IF just falls into uselessly soaking up overkill damage after the first extra hit survived.

It's worse when you start looking at the damage on +3 morningstars/45c+ weapons/+3 bec/+3 long spiked club/strong pole stabs/couches/anything with a horseback speed bonus + headshot on a non-bumped target, it's not unusual to see something like 70++ effective damage using a +3 morningstar to the face vs the heaviest helmets from horseback while riding below 75% max speed on the armored horses.

Couches are even worse in that regard, someone with 0 ps/1 wpf/6 riding can easily do upwards of 80+ effective damage with an unloomed jousting lance and an unloomed courser on a chest hit on the heaviest possible loomed body armor + gloves without going anywhere near full speed.

I guess IF could help people when I'm using a club or a practice sword to be incredibly greedy with upkeep give myself a challenge, so I guess there's that.

Well, my worst experience of 6PS 184 wpf and a 35c weapon was 14-shotting Butan once, not counting bounces. The funny part is that it wasn't staged, that fight went on for nearly a minute, in the middle of a castle. Now, Butan had around max armor so it's not really fair, but armor values in the 70s aren't really rare here. Due to that armor, people also move around trying to make enemy attacks bounce rather than empowering their own.

[imisshotmail]

NA armor situation has kind of become a race to the bottom. Before the WM buff, everyone was 27/15 or similar and wearing at least 14kg body armor (Heavy Kuyak+). With that patch, they all respecced to 21/21 or similar. Then they got fed up losing to 18/27 polearmers where they still get 2-shot while being s-keyed and spammed, so they spec even more agility themselves and wear lighter armor so they can keep up. So now most melee are in <12kg body armor, 16 kg at the most.

I find that agi polearmers (most of NA melee now) 2-shot me regardless of what armor I wear (up to 65+), so I've been going progressively lighter myself.

I don't think the original M&B devs had 9 ath, 200 wpf, 36p +3 awlpikes in mind when the speed bonus formula was created. Tone down speed bonus, and you'll find that strength and IF will make a comeback.

If you get hit by high speed bonus attacks it's almost always your own fault for having poor footwork.
I have 0 idea how anybody can complain about people using light armour and being agility builds.. it's so much easier to kill someone like that if you are better than them than if they are in heavy armour and high strength (assuming they don't just run away ofc).

Really what it just seems like to me is better players are beating you, and because they are high agility builds you get mad and think it's Unbalanced.

A typical case of the
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[Phew]

If you get hit by high speed bonus attacks it's almost always your own fault for having poor footwork.
I have 0 idea how anybody can complain about people using light armour and being agility builds..

If you read the thread, you'd notice that it's about people forsaking IF in favor of more agility, which has sh!t all to do with footwork. Most of these people still achieve 60+ body armor by wearing loomed medium armor and high armor loomed gloves, so we're not talking about light armor either.

If you are going to interrupt the adults when they are talking, at least keep it on topic.

[MURDERTRON]

CRPG community's idea of 'light' armour is generally around 60 body armour

Nah, only on EU, you filthy plate crutchers.

[San]

Before, the weight threshold before wpf penalty was 10. Now it's the max between Strength / 3 and IF * 2, with a minimum of 6. It's a buff for ranged and melee strength-builds. Greater penalties for gloves, too.

[Phew]

Before, the weight threshold before wpf penalty was 10. Now it's the max between Strength / 3 and IF * 2, with a minimum of 6. It's a buff for ranged and melee strength-builds. Greater penalties for gloves, too.

I'll reserve judgement, but I'm really liking all the ideas you guys came up with for this patch, this IF buff especially.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be plenty of time/reasons to burn us at the stake.

[MURDERTRON]

Before, the weight threshold before wpf penalty was 10. Now it's the max between Strength / 3 and IF * 2, with a minimum of 6. It's a buff for ranged and melee strength-builds. Greater penalties for gloves, too.

Gloves are fucked and the prophecy of elitewarrior86 has become true!
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[SayAttack]

if u dont mind...)

14 hp not as good as a single point of athletics?

definitely
 and 7ath even much more better than 7if.
agi allows you to survive and do more damage - fast ppl, harder to aim and shoot, harder to couch and bump-slash; in melee its harder to spam and kick'em, they have a great advantage in controlling distance - very easy to make a mistake, trying to catch them  "on a length", even if their weapon shorter;s-key style is based on a lot of athletics; today they are also have wp buff, almost always they maxing wm to fully realize this advantage(if u got IF u cant afford max wm) - their weapon much faster and given a  speed modification it damages very tough; finally, agiwhore  can at any time to leave the dangerous area of battle(pretty often agiwhore in losing team = valourmaker)
IF allows you to survive much longer and ...do what? what can do an iron guy, who, roughly speaking, stands still? who cares how many damage u can get, if you still can not hit back? siege only guy...defend side only.
agi allows you to do many things, makes u extremely dangerous atleast for 2 classes,  but with less chance of mistakes - IF its, unfortunately,  just a longer staying in a state of futility.

IF is great in a duel setting

if u mean IF instead of agi  , i also disagree with it - imo agiwhoring suggests minimizing of incoming damage, especially in melee and especially in 1on1 situation, no one will sacrifice agi, which is the key to success. did not die from a 2-3 hits them allows +3 sets

for example, pls look at this preparing to new patch

(click to show/hide)

My main Hearst ll be
 (click to show/hide)
Level 37 (569 113 792 xp)

    Strength: 21
    Agility: 27
    Hit points: 58

    Converted: 12
    Ironflesh: 1
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 9
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 9

    One Handed: 1
    Two Handed: 187
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

i think it's kind of a typical example of builds, im sure it will be more then usefull. on practice IF its just a waste of skills. 1point there its just like Butan on eu3

if here is also allowed to speak about personal experience, I played long enough on 21/21 777 and I can say that  with medium or a bit heavier armor its rly pretty tanky, but when someone like Knitler hits you in the head removing  more then half hp and you do realize that next one will be the last -   u dont give shit about 1 or 2 or even 3 IF and thinking about 1 more in  shields or wm to have time to block it. on the other hand, playing an inf with 6 or 7 athletics, personally for me its  2 completely different games , with 7 im much more dangerous... which consequently allows me to be more survivable^^
therefore I support if's buff, especially expense of agi
(sry about my eng).

[Shaksie]

You do actually feel very disadvantaged with no IF, whenever I start Q_Qing about being weak despite having 65 armor, I always remember that I'm being a bastard with no IF. When I do get IF, I'm significantly tankier.
I suppose IF its for people like me who do stupid shit and/or can't block very well.
That being said I think it could add a bit of base armor and maybe 3 health per point, it seems significantly weaker than the other skills.

[Grumbs]

Still rather say no to IF and pump the skill points into a build with more agi/athletics. I don't even think PS is worth taking str for compared to agi still. That movement speed is such a huge bonus in a melee fight, and more WM gives you more WPF than some IF which doesn't really help much imo

[Camaris]

Just look at Siege... there are some players with high if. They kill and kill and kill cause they can take 4-6 hits every time and CAN ignore some of those hits.
IF is very powerful most people just dont realize how powerful it is.

[Mr.K.]

Still rather say no to IF and pump the skill points into a build with more agi/athletics. I don't even think PS is worth taking str for compared to agi still. That movement speed is such a huge bonus in a melee fight, and more WM gives you more WPF than some IF which doesn't really help much imo

Just because that's how you feel doesn't make it a universal fact. I play agi (12/36) and strength (36/9) builds all the time, extreme both ends and balanced (24/21) as well and I really don't see the issue you and some others keep raising with the "agi masterrace". As an average skill level player I always do better with a str build than I do with an agi build. Best KDs I get with a balanced str leaning build.

All of the classes play differently and depending on my build I might have to choose different targets. If I have low str, I'll try to avoid ranged and really heavy infantry that can kill me with 1-2 swings. If I play strength, I need to avoid the corsairs of the battlefield that can just dance around me. Balanced builds are better because they work against both types of players (especially with polearm/greatsword) and you only really need to avoid ranged. Good players with agi builds can be annoying, but it's not the agi part that makes them strong, it's their skill.