Throwing lance vs cav

[Admerius]

Throwing lance is more like a peasant and ninja hunter now, before it was decent enough to kill many medium armoured players with one good hit.

The rebalance is good if you look at potential damage etc. but the gameplay effecs this has on throwing lance is huge.

Instead of being a dreaded instakilling burst dps platform you're more like Pure strength Jarid build.

I don't like this effect on gameplay, Throwing lance was better before this "buff".

I would actually like it more if they didn't nerf the damage and made it two slot and 2 ammo.

[Voncrow]

Throwing lance is more like a peasant and ninja hunter now, before it was decent enough to kill many medium armoured players with one good hit.

The rebalance is good if you look at potential damage etc. but the gameplay effecs this has on throwing lance is huge.

Instead of being a dreaded instakilling burst dps platform you're more like Pure strength Jarid build.

I don't like this effect on gameplay, Throwing lance was better before this "buff".

I would actually like it more if they didn't nerf the damage and made it two slot and 2 ammo.

I also prefer the throwing lance back to its old self with less ammo, but I don't know about 1 for 2 slots. I suppose you could compare it to most a lot of polearms of similar size that are also 2slot.

[MURDERTRON]

The stab damaged was nerfed as was the stab animation, so it's still much worse off than before.  And the while damage capacity is garbage, because it was 1-2 throws to kill before and now it's 2-3, but you just spend more time throwing.  The speed bonus/damage soak changes didn't help either.  Unfortunately, when Tydeus starts nerfing, he will often double or in this case triple nerf something in rapid succession.  He still hasn't learned what moderation is, but maybe it's because he's paranoid that the devs will patch and then never come back so he'd better get it all in at once.

My biggest issue with all these changes was that lance throwers were a highly specialized class before.  Yes, they were capable of one shorting medium armor, which was apparently what Tydeus disliked the most. However, you have to remember this class took something like 11 skill points (7PT and 4WM) and required 21 strength.  Obviously the level 21/18 hybrid pole arm class was popular, but you were missing out on any chance of IF.  Meanwhile, arbalests only require 4WM to be accurate and 18 str, leaving an essentially full melee spec class and can still 1 shot medium armor with ranged.  And of course, 1 slot 2hers and 0 slot 1hers keep getting buffed.

[AntiBlitz]

47x6 = 282
60x4 = 240
So now you have more and do a total of 42 more damage average. Meaning you can hit more opponents on top of dealing more damage. But yeah, sure it's a nerf.

Edit: Also, you can add zero slot weapons in on top of that. Such as two sets of throwing daggers, knives, stars or any one hander(0slot).

yes the throwing lance isnt a weapon that you toss everything you can into someone to kill them, your ammo is so limited that not having more damage makes them fail hard to something like jarids, which are essentially what they are now, just long jarids, weak long jarids.

You'd rather have 4 at 60p than 6 at 47p since you would need to throw 4 of them into one player to kill him?

before you needed 1 to take em down to like 10% health, 2 throws on the really hefty fellows.  But since they are just long jarids now, they are garbage, i saw someone throw 3 lances into a rouncey, which is just stupid.

Like i said, might as well be a 2h/pole archer or xbow, as throwing lances are terrible.  Or just go full in gimmick jarid thrower, that seems to do pretty well since hybrid throwing is pretty shit too.

[San]

Throwing lances had to be changed since they were worse at 60p with only 4 ammo with the changed armor factors.

It's currently the best hybrid throwing weapon in the game. There are a variety of gear setups available that gives it more versatility than the troll builds of old. You can also easily 2 shot anyone if you invest in more PT. 7 PT was a low barrier for dealing 50 damage against guys with 80 armor. Arbalest also has it worse off, so I don't understand all the comparisons to it.

[Gurnisson]

The best way to use throwing lances is softening enemies with 1-2 lances (depending on armour/class) and then melee the rest of the hp down afterwards.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

There's a lot of things that the newer throwing lances have going against them that aren't covered in the public damage calculator in the beginner's forums, but my feeling is that throwing feels much softer vs cavalry/charging infantry in general.

I probably wouldn't mind any of the changes if the slot bug were fixed.

That being said, the main nerfs to throwing in general were:

1. Speed bonus change for ranged, which was probably done to nerf HA/HX/HT.
     -Patch: 0.3.3.0
     -Old Value: missile_damage_speed_power = 1.9 (whoops, typo)
     -New Value: missile_damage_speed_power = 1.0
     -Relevant formula:   raw_damage *= math.pow(missile_damage_speed_power, speed_bonus)
     -Much bigger deal for throwing than the others, since their base missile speed is much lower, so lower damage vs fast charging enemies, more damage vs retreating enemies.
     -Ironically makes charging cavalry much harder to kill for ranged.

2. "Extra penetration" value changes (Larger soak, lower reduce)
     -Patch: 0.3.3.0
     -Old Value (Soak): 1.2
     -New Value (Soak): 1.6
     -Old Value (Reduction): 0.6
     -New Value (Reduction) 0.5
     -The calculator that everybody uses in the beginner's forums doesn't have extra penetration (pretty much all ranged weapons except stupid stuff like smoke bomb/ladders) factored into it.

(click to show/hide)

Cut:
Melee:0.65
Melee Reduction:1.6
New Ranged Soak:1.04
Old Ranged Soak:0.78
New Ranged Reduction:0.8
Old Ranged Reduction:0.96

Pierce:
Melee Soak:0.5
Melee Reduction:1.1
New Ranged Soak:0.8
Old Ranged Soak:0.6
New Ranged Reduction:0.55
Old Ranged Reduction:0.66

Blunt:
Melee Soak:0.4
Melee Reduction:1.3
New Ranged Soak:0.64
Old Ranged Soak:0.48
New Ranged Reduction:0.65
Old Ranged Reduction:0.78

Damage comparison without speed bonus:
Current 47p:
    Raw Damage: ~80
    Armor: 70
    Minimum: 20.02
    Real Average: 23.95
    Maximum: 27.98

Current 60p:
    Raw Damage: ~100
    Armor: 70
    Minimum: 32.04
    Real Average: 36.8
    Maximum: 41.69

Old soak/reduction with glorious old 60p
    Raw Damage: ~100
    Minimum: 36.01
    Real Average: 40.39
    Maximum: 44.89


(36.8 * 4) = 147
(23.95 * 6) = 143.7
(40.39 * 4) = 161.56

3. Recalculation of WPF penalties for ranged in general

#1 probably has the biggest effect for throwing weapons in general. The difference in killing thresholds seems too drastic vs heavy armors when you hit an enemy in the arms/shoulder since everyone in crpg flails around.

#2 probably has the biggest effect on cut throwing/cut arrows.

#3 probably has the biggest effect on trolly 3PT throwing dagger/war dart builds since they target squishy people/always try to headshot anyway.

[MURDERTRON]

Throwing lances had to be changed since they were worse at 60p with only 4 ammo with the changed armor factors.

It's currently the best hybrid throwing weapon in the game.

Do you really believe this?  Both crossbow and throwing lances take about 4wm to be effective, and 18 str to use.  However, throwing lances obviously require 6PT.  That is essentially a 2 level penalty, or giving up and extra athletics or power strike.  San, I generally like your approach to most issues, as you have a fairly good understanding of basic math, but in this case you are missing a big part of the picture.

[San]

Ranged speed bonus may be a little different. I think it's somewhere within the depths of WSE and I don't really understand it that well:

http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/msg356369/#msg356369

Code: [Select]

            if missile:
                    missile_speed_vec = missile.get_direction()
                   
                    if (receiver_agent_no >= 0):
                            missile_speed_len = (receiver_speed_vec - missile_speed_vec).length() # sqrt(x²+y²+z²)
                    else:
                            missile_speed_len = missile_speed_vec.length()
                   
                    damage = pow(missile_speed_len / missile.speed, module_settings.missile_damage_speed_power) * missile.damage * attack_rec.unknown_value
           

Currently, ranged have the same soak/reduce as melee.

added penetration flags to throwing.

Throwing didn't have extra penetration until August, after soak/reduce was first changed I think. It just went back to how it was.

Using the old soak/reduce values of 0.6 and 0.55 and 64p, 7PT, 170wpf, 70 armor

    Minimum: 47.77
    Real Average: 53
    Maximum: 58.37
    Raw Damage: 114.52

Edit:

Do you really believe this?  Both crossbow and throwing lances take about 4wm to be effective, and 18 str to use.  However, throwing lances obviously require 6PT.  That is essentially a 2 level penalty, or giving up and extra athletics or power strike.  San, I generally like your approach to most issues, as you have a fairly good understanding of basic math, but in this case you are missing a big part of the picture.

I think you're mentioning the part where I said that Arbalests also have it worse off? Its damage was reduced from low 50s to ~40. Both were affected, so their relationship compared to each other would have been similar, except Arbalest was unchanged and Throwing Lance was altered to fit the soak/reduce changes. I don't think there are any better throwing weapons you can hybrid with. It had -1p, but it still has the same pierce as a +3 Shortened Spear. Its side swings were also buffed by 2. Speed was reduced, but it's still fast. You can use the extra equipment spaces for throwing daggers, a 0 slot weapon, or a buckler, or sacrifice a set of Throwing Lances for a 2 slot weapon. Less upkeep, too.

[MURDERTRON]

So you're telling me that a revolver with 6 bullets is better than a sniper rifle with 15 or 30, in a medieval combat game?

I mean, are you taking effective range into account here?  Sure, lances may do slightly more damage, but it's still two to kill.  Lances have to be thrown from just outside melee range, because they are not very accurate if you're a hybrid.  The slots argument is not a particularly good one because daggers and ninjas stars have garbage damage.   Oh, and again: skill point investment.

[Voncrow]

So you're telling me that a revolver with 6 bullets is better than a sniper rifle with 15 or 30, in a medieval combat game?

I mean, are you taking effective range into account here?  Sure, lances may do slightly more damage, but it's still two to kill.  Lances have to be thrown from just outside melee range, because they are not very accurate if you're a hybrid.  The slots argument is not a particularly good one because daggers and ninjas stars have garbage damage.   Oh, and again: skill point investment.

Crossbows have a reload time that would make up for the lack of points in my opinion. While Throwing lances have a shorter range they also have a much higher rate of release. On top of that the nerf to the melee mode of the throwing lance was probably need. I remember seeing players like Sauce who went even in melee with throwing lances against plenty of melee, while that may just be because of skill, the melee mode was a bit ridiculous. There is also the fact that Throwing Lances(at least 2 sets at there current upkeep) are cheaper than an arbalest alone.

[MURDERTRON]

Crossbows have a reload time that would make up for the lack of points in my opinion. While Throwing lances have a shorter range they also have a much higher rate of release. On top of that the nerf to the melee mode of the throwing lance was probably need. I remember seeing players like Sauce who went even in melee with throwing lances against plenty of melee, while that may just be because of skill, the melee mode was a bit ridiculous. There is also the fact that Throwing Lances(at least 2 sets at there current upkeep) are cheaper than an arbalest alone.

Ask sauce if he is throwing now.  That was pre-wpf patch, now you can't get as much wpf.  Like I said pole stab was horribly crippled, plus taking away 2p and however many speed.  It's pretty hard to land that stab now, considering they always glance with ~100 wpf, which is all you can get if you want 130 throwing wpf.  The buff to blunt damage isn't all that useful, the swings were there to set up the stab.

Also cost doesn't matter anymore, as per Tydeus in the many cavalry nerf conversations on this forum.  It's funny that you talk about "rate of release," because you just said that 6 lances for slightly more damage vs 4 lances for faster damage is preferable.  You are acknowledging the difference in DPS and then saying less is better and then more is better.

[San]

When the sniper rifle has to reload for 10 seconds without moving after every shot, it's difficult to say which weapon is more practical. Would you impact the field more by reloading whilst hidden or entering the fray yourself? Throwers on the other hand have a burst impact, especially when paired with other ranged. Additionally, hybridizing lessens the risk of close-quarters confrontations, even when disregarding great defensive tools such the pole nudge.

Daggers+Ninja stars received +3 cut and better accuracy. They can quickly end someone who was hit by a throwing lance from afar and can be used as a go-to for times where you don't want to waste precious Throwing Lance ammo. Without stagger, they're pretty useless to a thrower, but all of a sudden they end up being great in conjunction with the Throwing Lance.

It takes 5 64p Throwing Lances to match the 51p ones while being more efficient vs a full health enemy.

+3 throwing lance before:

30p
20b
103 speed

Now:

29p
22b
99 speed

Still good.

[MURDERTRON]

San please don't forget that you start on opposite sides of the map, and there are plenty of great hiding places in nearly every map.  Dune might be an exception.

If we were talking about that map that's open plain and you spawn next to enemies, sure the throwing lances would be better.

[Digglez]

throwing used to have very clearly defined SUSTAINED & BURST weapons.  Looks like you nerfed the shit out of the BURST ones (HTA, Jarrid, Lance) ...and sustain ones (javs, francs/HA, spears) have always been pretty poor to begin with.

whatever you did its terrible. I used to be able to down max speed incoming low tier unarmored horses with MW HTA to horses face and now i'm lucky if I can 2-3 shot them.  Throwing used to be a good counter to enemy cav/ranged, now its nerfed into being a gimmick since you skill taxed it into oblivion for hybrids.

Well at least you kinda buffed the most common weapon throughout history the spear, at the massive expensive of the second most common; throwing.