Throwing lance vs cav

[San]

Unarmored horses were given more HP, a pure build would likely need 3 without speed bonus. I definitely wouldn't call HTA or Jarids burst since they're 3 ammo per stack. HTA, Jarids, and Throwing Spears are all great and have been largely buffed continously since the armor factor changes.

Old HTA-> New HTA:

Accuracy: 126 -> 147
Damage: 47 cut -> 46 cut
Ammo: 2 -> 3 (originally was 43 cut when ammo was first changed, then all cut throwing received +3 damage)

Burst damage is still there, you just need an actual strength build, not have damage for free.

[Voncrow]

Ask sauce if he is throwing now.  That was pre-wpf patch, now you can't get as much wpf.  Like I said pole stab was horribly crippled, plus taking away 2p and however many speed.  It's pretty hard to land that stab now, considering they always glance with ~100 wpf, which is all you can get if you want 130 throwing wpf.  The buff to blunt damage isn't all that useful, the swings were there to set up the stab.

Also cost doesn't matter anymore, as per Tydeus in the many cavalry nerf conversations on this forum.  It's funny that you talk about "rate of release," because you just said that 6 lances for slightly more damage vs 4 lances for faster damage is preferable.  You are acknowledging the difference in DPS and then saying less is better and then more is better.

I know I was talking about sauce before the nerf, the point I was trying to make was that at least the melee mode needed a nerf. As for dps comparison, 4-6 throwing lances rate of fire is much different from 2 lance - two crossbow shots. Although right now I'm arguing against it, I actually support the 60p 4 lance over 47p 6 lances, although that can be countered by the fact that you do have to be within a short range  for lances to be effective makes it easier to be forced into melee and therefore lose out to that potential extra damage from having more pierce right up. As is antiblitz's point, lance thrower use to be a powerful and fun throwing/ polearm hybrid that brought fun and annoyance at the same time to the game. The nerf turned throwing lances into a dedicated thrower weapon which is kind of sad. The 4 lance 60 pierce with great melee hybrid capability brought a nice diversity into the game that I would take any day over mounted range.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

                    damage = pow(missile_speed_len / missile.speed, module_settings.missile_damage_speed_power) * missile.damage * attack_rec.unknown_value

Yeah that bolded value throws me off a bit.

Still looks like throwing was really nerfed vs charging cavalry though (exponential -> linear), which is really where it shined. And then there's the soak/reduce multipliers.

Currently, ranged have the same soak/reduce as melee.
Throwing didn't have extra penetration until August, after soak/reduce was first changed I think. It just went back to how it was.

After deleting all of my crpg text files and repairing, I can assure you that the extra penetration flags are still different.

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extra_penetration_factor_soak = 1.6
extra_penetration_factor_reduction = 0.5

...And after decompiling the repaired itemkinds1.txt, I can assure you that the extra penetration flags are still there on ranged items. Still absent on stuff like ladders and smoke bombs though.

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  ["itm_throwing_lance","Throwing_Lance", [("throwing_lance_h1", 0)], itp_type_thrownitp_merchandise|itp_primary|itp_bonus_against_shield|itp_civilian|itp_extra_penetration, itcf_throw_javelin,8105, weight(4.5)|abundance(100)|leg_armor(158)|difficulty(6)|spd_rtng(80)|shoot_speed(17)|weapon_length(120)|max_ammo(3)|thrust_damage(47, pierce), imodbits_none,[]],

Unless the server files differ from the updater's files, then what you said makes sense.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I still have to look at the 2s throwing lance packs as a big ol' nerf (even ignoring the speed bonus & soak stuff) until the slot bug is fixed.

[San]

I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Slot bug?

Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?

[AntiBlitz]

I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Slot bug?

Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?

picking up lances drops your equipment because its trying to pick up an additional stack.  So itll drop your 0 slot sword, your other stack of 2/3 lances to pick up a single lance.  Normally occurs if they arent of the same loom level.

Glad they moved this to the bowels of the forums, i wouldnt want people to actually read it.

[San]

I think I made an error. I was using 1.2x and 0.5x for penetration when it was 1.2x and 0.6x. The damage from penetration is overstated by 3-4 points from that.

[Digglez]

so speed bonus was removed for ranged or something? In an attempt to nerf HA?

[San]

One of the largest reasons, yes. It let HA easily outdamage foot archers. There were some admittedly poor tradeoffs, so I'm hoping there can be some way to bring it back if horse ranged could possibly be addressed another way.

[Digglez]

so there is no way to only disable it to HA and not other ranged?

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Ah, didn't know about that/didn't have access to the section at that time.

Slot bug?

Warband's a bit unintelligent with everything which item in your weapon slots to replace. Coupled with cRPG's slot system, it leads to wonky behavior.

An example would be a person having a set of throwing lances, a set of heavy throwing axes, a 1 slot 1h weapon, and a buckler.

Once the lances and axes are expended, you would logically expect that if the person attempts to pick up something like javelins or darts from the ground, they'd drop one of the empty sets of throwing items to pick it up.

Instead, they'll tend to drop their 1 slot 1h weapon to pick it up, so the spent throwing weapons are nothing but added weight and a hindrance to that character.

I don't know why, but this behavior seems to act even worse with spent throwing lances in your inventory for some reason, plus there's the funny situations where you drop two things trying to pick up a single throwing lance.

Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?

Well, automatically getting rid of spent ammo stacks from a character would be better since it makes throwers excellent scavengers in general, and it'd get rid of some of the added weight so that they're slightly better at melee once a stack runs out.

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This stuff is just an example, I haven't tried compiling it.

If ti_on_item_unwielded gets called on running out of throwing ammo (ideal, since it'll seem more seamless to the client)

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### module_mission_templates.py
(ti_on_item_unwielded, 0, 0, [],
[
     (try_begin),
          (multiplayer_is_server),
          (store_trigger_param_1, ":agent_no"),
          (ge, ":agent_no", 0),
          (agent_is_human, ":agent_no"),
          (try_for_range, ":current_item_slot", 0, 4),    #check item slots 0 - 3 (weapon1, weapon2, weapon3, weapon4)
               (agent_get_item_slot, ":current_item_id", ":agent_no", ":current_item_slot"),         
               (gt, ":current_item_id", 0),   #if slot empty, skip to next slot
               (item_get_type, ":current_item_type", ":current_item_id"),
                    (try_begin),
                    (this_or_next|eq, itp_type_arrows, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains arrows
                    (this_or_next|eq, itp_type_bolts, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains bolts
                    (eq, itp_type_thrown, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains a throwing weapon
                    (agent_get_item_slot_ammo, ":current_item_ammo_count", ":agent_no", ":current_item_slot"),    ###WSE Operation
                    (eq, 0, ":current_item_ammo_count"),
                    (store_add, ":slot_to_clear", 1, ":current_item_slot"), #add 1 to current_item_slot since agent_unequip_item uses values 1-4 to get weapon slots 1-4, while agent_get_item_slot uses values 0-3.
                    (agent_unequip_item, ":agent_no", ":current_item_id", "slot_to_clear"),    #remove item if it is a stack of arrows/bolts/throwing weapon with 0 ammo
               (try_end),
          (try_end),
     (try_end),
(try_end),
]),

If ti_on_item_unwielded doesn't get called by running out of a throwing weapon:

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### module_mission_templates.py
(ti_on_item_wielded, 0, 0, [],
[
     (try_begin),
          (multiplayer_is_server),
          (store_trigger_param_1, ":agent_no"),
          (ge, ":agent_no", 0),
          (agent_is_human, ":agent_no"),
          (try_for_range, ":current_item_slot", 0, 4),    #check item slots 0 - 3 (weapon1, weapon2, weapon3, weapon4)
               (agent_get_item_slot, ":current_item_id", ":agent_no", ":current_item_slot"),         
               (gt, ":current_item_id", 0),   #if slot empty, skip to next slot
               (item_get_type, ":current_item_type", ":current_item_id"),
                    (try_begin),
                    (this_or_next|eq, itp_type_arrows, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains arrows
                    (this_or_next|eq, itp_type_bolts, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains bolts
                    (eq, itp_type_thrown, ":current_item_type"),  #slot contains a throwing weapon
                    (agent_get_item_slot_ammo, ":current_item_ammo_count", ":agent_no", ":current_item_slot"),    ###WSE Operation
                    (eq, 0, ":current_item_ammo_count"),
                    (store_add, ":slot_to_clear", 1, ":current_item_slot"), #add 1 to current_item_slot since agent_unequip_item uses values 1-4 to get weapon slots 1-4, while agent_get_item_slot uses values 0-3.
                    (agent_unequip_item, ":agent_no", ":current_item_id", "slot_to_clear"),    #remove item if it is a stack of arrows/bolts/throwing weapon with 0 ammo
               (try_end),
          (try_end),
     (try_end),
(try_end),
]),

Other options:

Bonus vs horses applies to riders (Maybe consider giving it to most of the axe/longer than dart javelin type thrown too since lack of speed bonus)
Reversion of ranged speed bonus change (just reduce raw damage by some factor in ti_on_agent_hit for missile attacks from riders, let them charge for more risk/reward.)
Increase base throwing item missile flight speed to native levels.

[Macropus]

I'm pretty sure that to prevent dropping melee weapon when picking up throwing, you should put your melee weapon to 1st slot.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

That's helpful, but the dead weight problem is still there.

Plus people who use four throwing stacks aren't able to do that.

[San]

Nice ideas.

[AntiBlitz]

i dont see why they couldnt just be added to a "quiver" like arrows are for archery when you pick up arrows from the ground.

[Digglez]

what if you set throwing weapon weights to 0 or very very small, as a temporary fix?  Would that affect them in melee as well?

Or a way to make it so you only get charged once per TYPE of throwing weapon.  So if you carried 3 sets of axes, you only get charged for one....vs if you bring lance & daggers, you'd get charged weight of both of them.


Also, shouldnt this thread be in game balance discussion now