here is the current NA2 server list with brief overhead map view.
08/04/14 - cRGP NA2 Siege Map Lineup view album (images too hard to sort sorry)
Wow, great work man. Thanks a lot for posting this.
I have a feeling that this will take me quite a long while to review, since I like to elaborate as much as I can when I post, so I only ask that you actually try and take the time to consider what I (just one little NA siege player) have to say. If you do read it carefully and take my thoughts into consideration, then thank you in advance.
Anyways, without further ado, here are my thoughts on the maps in the current rotation. For any maps that I think are okay, I do not elaborate much, since there is little reason to. When speaking about the left/right/front/back of a castle, I try and speak relative to attackers spawn. So the front would be the side facing their spawn.
hrafninn_castleThis is the classic siege-killer map. The problem here is it is too vertical, which gives defense a great advantage. Not only does it take the attackers a long time to climb to the very top, but it also has many great places for defending ranged to pick them off from while they make the long climb up. To top it all off, the flag area itself is very small, and easily defendable since there are few ways in. The only times attackers have ever won this map were due to a stacked attacking side or very lazy defending where a ninja won the day.
I like the map a lot... the detailing is nice and all, but it just isn't fun to play for either side, really. And more importantly, it more often than not kills siege. It is one of those maps that a team which is losing 2-0 will often throw the last round just so they get off the map sooner.
native_rudkhan_castleGood map.
devonshire_keepGreat map, easily one of my favorites.
winter_castleGood classic siege map.
warkworth_castleA pretty good map that is only unplayable as of now due to the pseudo-conquest mode where attackers must select a spawn and defenders have long timers and the inability to spawn while the flag is contested. If this map would be reverted to regular siege, it would be fine.
native_mahdaar_castleHaven't seen this one in the rotation in a while. It has always been a so-so map, mainly because there is simply no real use to the 2nd gate/gatehouse. With the flag centered like it is, there is no difference coming at it from the back or the front since you can only attack from the left or right side. My biggest complaint is that with only 2 sides to attack from any team that camps the flag is sure to win. Maybe the addition of a ladder coming up directly from the ground to the flag from behind would give the 2nd gate and set of doors some purpose, as well as give another entrypoint to the flag (which due to being located so much further away than the other two entry points probably wouldn't see much use anyways... but at least it would be an option).
himmelsberg_monasteryAnother good Elindor-made map.
castle_16_exterior_cClassic Almerra. Great map.
castle_34_exterior_cGood map.
inch_tuthThis one is pretty good. Kinda rough on the defenders due to the smaller size of it and the fact that attackers can come from 3 directions. This map mostly devolves into a skirmish around the flag for much of the round, which is okay by me (so long as every single map isn't like that... it provides a nice change of pace).
native_jameyyed_castleThe go-to "let's change the map to something that is balanced" map whenever an admin comes along to fix the rotation. Pretty good map.
HeisenbergGood map.
holmet_castlePretty good.
greipenfurt_castleGood.
ridoma_castleAnother great one, a favorite of mine since it plays differently than most.
sea_raidGreat map. Always play this map from beginning to end regardless of my multi and if I have to leave or not.
citadelGood map, but was much better before the addition of the "gauntlet run" hallways that replaced the door to the flag. A door was something that attackers could actually get through, while running the gauntlet is suicide. This changes up the map so the back two entryways are used much more often, which throws off the balance a little since the attackers' only real option is to go the long way, every time. Would much rather see the old version of this map back in the rotation.
footholdGood map.
rochester_castleA so-so map. Kind of hard for attackers since the defense usually just camps the flag area the whole time. The only real chance the attackers have is to flank around the back and win the flag in the first push while most of the defenders are fighting on the front wall for their first life. The defending team basically has all the perks of camping the walls, but at the flag. Combine that with several defending spawns that are really close to the flag, and well, it isn't the best map be on t he attacking side. I like this map, how it is laid out and everything, but frankly it just doesn't play well. I wouldn't mind seeing it revamped somehow so it is more fair to the attackers, but there wouldn't be too many easy ways to do that since the flag's location gives defense such an advantage.
jammadi_castleAnother polarizing, so-so map. Some like it, others hate it. It is pretty fun since there aren't really many important ladders or stairs that must be climbed. For that reason I like it, but I know many others hate it, and don't get me wrong, me "liking" it is by no means the same thing as me thinking it's a great and fun map. The main issues with this one that I see are that it takes attackers quite a while to get to the flag. A whole lot of zigging and zagging is necessary to navigate the streets successfully. And once you finally get to the flag area, it is surrounded by a moat, and there is only one entrance to the flag itself. No one likes fighting in water, and it usually aides the defensive side more than the attacking since it not only slows the attackers down, but because they are slowed down ranged/long weapons have a much easier time picking them off. If there were more direct paths to the flag so that this map didn't feel like such a maze, and if the water was removed, then this might play out alright. Maybe the water could stay, but if so I would like to see the flag wall removed instead. That way the water could provide a natural barrier that any defenders within the circle could use to their advantage. It would also allow the circular nature of the whole central area to have more of an impact on gameplay, by allowing attackers to come from any direction.
castle_30_exterior_cPretty good map. Not the best, far from the worst.
native_hailes_castleA nice small map. Good change of pace from some of the larger ones (see jammadi above).
native_brunwud_castleI haven't seen this map in quite a while and frankly I thought it was removed from the rotation. From what I remember it was a decent map plagued by the annoying attacker spawn-swapping halfway through the round. Attackers would almost all spawn in the front (where the siege tower is) at the beginning of the round, and then about halfway through most of their spawns switch to the left side (bottom left side in the picture provided) where the big wooden gate is. This was always a major nuisance since the tower is so far away now, and if the big gate hasn't been opened yet then the only option was the ladder on the far left. In addition to taking a different entryway into the castle, you now have a harder time getting to certain entryways into the main keep. Oftentimes I would see a team push onto the walls with the siege tower, then immediately turn right and try to enter the keep from the back right-hand side. Now assuming that they didn't take the flag right away, when all the team starts spawning near the bottom left, the side which favors them taking the back left-hand side approach, any progress made on the back right side would be for nothing, and attackers are basically back to square one halfway through the round. There are a couple other maps that do this spawn switch-up thing (like hrafninn castle) but it isn't AS bad in those maps as it is in this one. Regardless, hrafninn is a poor map for other reasons, while the only real downside to this map is the spawn swapping.
Also, as I said I haven't played this map in a while, and from this image it seems there is another gate now in front of the flag. This is a big no-no in my opinion since the head-on approach on this map almost never worked since the gate took a while to break and as I said before a favored approach would be to flank around either side since there is only one door around back as opposed to now TWO in front. Also, the doors around back have always broken far quicker than the front door... now with two front doors that approach seems almost useless.
quick_battle_scene_4Another great small map.
ishtarA so-so map. Kind of a long walk for attackers, but at least they have a few cool ninja routes to take. It is kind of hard on the attackers since the defenders can very easily just hold the inner walls without caring about the outside much at all, other than the close the main gate from time to time to slow the attackers up a little. Also, the entry you take into the castle is very dependent upon where you spawn, as it is a far walk form the far left to the far right ladders. There is no real reason the terrain has to be so sloped outside the castle, as it only limits the attackers' options when they want to choose which side to attack. In my opinion the attackers entry points should all be relatively equal in walking time (at least for the front side). This allows the player to choose which side they want to pick for strategic reasons, not simply because it is the shortest route sicne they spawned way on the left/right.
kurosch_cityUgh. This map. Nothing against the map, but it just isn't fun to play. I like the concept and the detail in it, but having an underground siege map just doesn't play too well. When defenders spawn outside, they often neglect the fact that their flag is way down below and just charge at the attackers. However, if all the defenders spawned underground all the time, well, the map would be highly in their favor. Also, this map feels like a long walk for attackers, only to be forced to fight on stairs. While this time around the attackers hold the high ground in the assault, stairs still slow them up and it simply isn't fun fighting on stairs. In this map much of the fighting (other than the first spawn yolo-charge of many defenders) is done on the stairs.
vocht_castleA decent, yet very unrealistic and weird concept that surprisingly works out okay. It isn't my favorite map, but I have no real issues with it.
windfall_castleThis map has always been fun, yet defending it was always a little more tricky than attacking. It seems as though the outer wall is now intact and there is a new gate through which the attackers must pass in order to get into the castle. I liked the map a lot how it used to be, and i think that this new wall destroys much of what made the older version so unique. It felt like a battlefield (and often was) before you even got to the walls. I liked that. This map encouraged defenders to sally out since attackers had a lot of flat ground to cover. The randomly placed spikes and siege shields gave the map an almost D-day feeling as you run from cover to cover dodging any defending ranged. With the new outer wall I can't help but feel like it is now like many other castles, only it has a larger courtyard that you really don't even need to pass through since it would be just as fast walking along the walls. If this map could be reverted to the older version, and the only change being that defenders had slightly closer spawns, then I think this map would be good. Otherwise, I can't really say since I've yet to play it with this new intact outer wall.
windhill_castleA pretty good map that tends to favor defenders since they get to hold the high ground with only two entry points at the flag (the stairs or the narrow bridge). I see that there is now a 3rd entry point, a ladder on the left side, which seems like a good idea and may very well turn this into a great map. I've yet to try it with this new ladder, though.
windsore_castlePretty fun map. No real complaints (other than the fact that the siege tower is nearly useless... but that doesn't seem to affect balance much).
rhodok_cliffside_castlePretty alright map. Not outstanding, not terrible.
the_lighthouseGood map. My only recommendations would be to fix the wall-jumping glitch that allows attackers to climb to the upper wall on the right side (and thus jump right into the flag area) and make the flag gate a little easier to break. It currently takes way too long to knock down, and with defenders poking through the gate, it is quite difficult to breach.
burg_rabensteinThis map is another siege killer. It isn't particularly inbalanced, although defenders usually seem to have an easier time, but it simply isn't that fun. It is a stale map that doesn't have anything all that unique about it. It seems most castles with an outer wall and then an inner keep are on the lower end of the fun spectrum. Also, it has another one of those poke-through gates, which always give defenders a huge advantage if they wish to hold the flag. If these type of gates were on the outer walls (like in jammadi castle) then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. If the whole defending team is sitting behind that type of gate, poking through at all the attackers trying to break it, then they will easily get ninja-capped that round. But with this type of gate at the flag, they can easily camp it AND the flag at the same time, leading to them having a huge advantage. Gates and the flag are the two key areas that defenders should defend... I was never particularly a fan of having them both so close to each other. Defenders should have to choose one or the other.
palace_of_marteFun map. Somewhat hard on the defenders since it is on the smaller side and the attackers don't spawn much farther away than some of the defender spawns. Maybe there should be a small and weak postern gate door on the bottom left where attackers can just walk right in to hold them up. I have yet to really determine if this map is terribly inbalanced against the defenders, or they just always seem to lose due to a lack of cohesion. Most often the attacking side is a clan stack or just has the better players, while I have the opposite prove true and the defenders can indeed win if that is the case... would take some more play-testing for me to be certain, but as it is I would say it slightly favors offense.
dun_bhirumPretty good map. I was never a huge fan of the elevated flag area, but I know some are, and well, it is something unique and different, so why not? The archer tower right next to the flag is a nuisance, but it doesn't completely throw the balance of the map.
tzar_castleYuck. This map might rank among the top 3 siege killers. It feels way too much like a maze, the attackers' flanking options are way too complex and require some sort of ninja skills to avoid taking fall damage or outright dying from falling, and last but not least it is made with what is perhaps the worst stone texture color. The dark gray color makes it quite difficult to tell the walls from the ground, from the parapets, from the towers, etc, since shading is a lot harder to perceive. It really throws off your depth perception since you are mostly focusing on something else (like your opponent's weapon). Speaking of which, seeing your opponents weapon is hard enough on this map since the stone walls are essentially the same color as weapons like the longsword/danish/short broad sword. This map is very dark, and makes it feel like it is always nighttime. Combine this map with actual nighttime, and everyone better bring a torch, else it's gonna be a pretty shitty few rounds.
viking_village_siegeI think I played this once in siege, and though it was a joke. This map should stay on the battle servers (where I don't think it is even used anymore), and stay out of siege. The flag wasn't even placed in a building, it was just sitting in the corner of the village. Very strange set up and not really the best for siege. I haven't seen this map in some time, and like I said only saw it that once, and I am glad I never encountered it again. If it is indeed still in the rotation, please take it out. The conversion from battle map to siege map seems hastily and poorly done.
bridge_of_eldiaNot a favorite of mine, but I don't particularly have any specific complaints about it either. It is something different, so I see no problem leaving it in for the sake of adding a bit of variety.
bragelon_castle...what? What even is this map? Never seen it in any server, and I don't think I even want to. Looks very much like burg rabenstein: sandstone edition. Doesn't look like fun, and I don't even see how it plays out (unless you go from ground level, to wall level, to inner wall level, then to somewhere in the keep? No idea whatsoever). I can't say with absolute certainty that this map is terrible, since I haven't played it. But judging the book by its cover, I will say it looks rather boring.
irongron_castleThis map is pretty large, confusing to navigate, and well, pretty boring as well. I like that the flag is in a large courtyard, but getting to it is a hassle. I only know of one way in, yet there are countless hallways and walls that I pass by that have to lead
somewhere. I've never played this map on a larger server population, so maybe all those potential ninja routes would prove useful. Each time I've played this one (only 2-3 times) the population has been below 10 per side.
al_khalIs this map fixed yet? I
think the last time I was on this one the underwater glitch was finally removed. However, that didn't solve the defenders spawning on a high balcony problem. Nevertheless, even with the forever-below-sea-level-induced-water-colored-fog removed, this map still played out horribly. Main reason: stairs. All the attackers could do was climb, climb, climb, only to die somewhere along the way or once they got to the top. Defense once again holds the high ground, and that just never makes for a fun map. I would say strike this one off the list.
bertreford_keepA decent map. I am still puzzled by the removal of the ladder on the left side. Too many entry points for attackers, I guess? Anyways, haven't really played this one enough to get a good grasp of how it plays out, but each time I did the flag was almost always contested at the very end, which I suppose means it is pretty balanced? Also, I still don't see the point of that gate above the water on the left side...
cazawa_keepDespite being a vertical map, this one wasn't ever TOO bad. It struck an odd balance between too much change in elevation and a lot of flat ground. Attackers aren't
constantly climbing ever so slowly up some inclined surface or another. Instead, they go up a short ladder, and then are on flat ground where they can move around and fight as they wish. Also, this map had plenty of ways up, so the attackers aren't stuck going through the same chokepoint again and again. However, ever since a recent patch a vital staircase was removed (or glitched) on the back right side. I can't see if it is still missing in that screenshot or not, but I pointed it out in a forum post here:
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/cazawa-keep-ruined-in-patch/I never got any sort of answer as to whether or not the removal of that staircase was intentional, but as someone points out one of those screenshots, there is a "dead end" which was never there before since it used to be a staircase.
chateau_de_chillonOnly played this map once, I think. No immediate concerns jumped out at me, but I would rather play test it more before I pass judgement on it. For now I will list it as so-so and not necessarily in need of removal.
EDIT: According to Digglez this map is messy and poorly laid out, which I can agree with after my brief time playing it. I would have said that as well, but then again nearly any map can seem like a maze on your first time playing. Also, there aren't many places to fight other than tiny cramped hallways and such which very quickly turn into nothing more than a big meatgrinder, and that is never much fun for either side involved.
forest_attackGlad to see that this one returned to the rotation, was always a fun one. The addition of the new ladder is an interesting idea, but it now makes the back left flank (where you need to cut down a doorway, then go up stairs, only to break through more doorways) completely neglected. The new ladder gets you to same place, but you have to hack through 2 or 3 less doors. I think that way might be a little too quick as of now, haven't played this one enough since the change to really see just how much it affects the map balance other than the aforementioned neglection of the back right flank.
fort_rhuinBad map. Too large, too confusing, too... odd.
khirin_castleGood map.
sorrows_anchorageA newer map, but one that isn't all that bad. It is very much a departure form the norm, and I like it, personally. Maybe some don't since there isn't much of a castle, and it is 'siege' after all. I don't mind it, and would definitely like to see it left in the rotation to maintain some variety.
EDIT: Apparently some attacker spawns should be tweaked. Minds well remove the defenders' spawn(s) inside the castle as well.
warhill_castleA very, very small map. Not sure if it is maybe TOO small for siege. I feel as though the attackers can get inside a little too quickly, especially if they knock down the postern gates on the right side. Haven't played it too much yet, and so far have only been defending.
white_burg_castleWay too large of a map for modern day siege. Reminds me of the maps from 3 years ago. I know that attackers used to spawn outside the far walls, not sure if their spawns are all inside now. Nevertheless this map isn't all that fun (stairs!) and is still very, very big.
winewic_castleA good map now that I think all the gates open from the inside once more. When they were bugged the map sucked, as to be expected.
bay_of_sharizIn terms of conquest maps, this was our first taste of conquest and well, it is a pretty decent map. Whether or not conquest really works in the siege server (until there can be a better reward system in place) remains to be seen. I think it could work out if a larger population can be maintained. Unil then, I am not so sure that this map, or any conquest map, should be in the rotation.
isle_of_crayAnother good conquest map. See above for reasons against conquest in general.
sharizLast I played this map was broken such that it never ended... so if that is still the case, remove it ASAP. Even if that isn't the case I would still vote for its removal. It is so large, so cluttered, and so disorderly that it is almost always impossible to tell which way you are headed. "Enemy is taking the west walls!" "That's great, which way is west?!?!"
Unlike the isle of cray or the bay of shariz, this map is an utter mess. Just looking at the other two conquest maps you can tell there is a natural progression through them. This one has no such thing.
helms_deepKeep your middle earth outa my calradia. This map has undergone 100 renovations just to make it work in siege, and I don't think a single version of this map has as of yet. Just please remove this map already as there are far better options out there. This map has all the worst aspects of every other siege map combined... it is very vertical, there are steep slopes/stairs all over, with many narrow chokepoints/ladders everywhere else.
hrafninn_conquestHrafninn 2.0? Please no. This map wasn't AS bad as it was in siege (probably due to really long defending timers), but once the newly-added flag was taken, it was simply good ole hrafninn all over again (that was sarcasm there, in case you missed it... there is nothing good about this map).
anor_strongholdIf this is the map I think it is, then I don't think it is still in the rotation. But assuming it is... well,
why is it? It has the most annoying gate opening method ever (only way up to the gatehouse and back down is the siege tower). Any defenders who spawn in teh gatehouse are pretty much stuck there until the attackers get the siege tower there, if they even choose to use the siege tower. Also, the ceiling is so low in the gathouse, weapons get caught on it on the overheads and most importantly the camera is all messed up. Not only that, but once inside many attackers run all over the place and then after a good 15 seconds of achieving nothing there is the collective "wait, WHERE'S the flag?!?"
wallenbergWhat the..? Never seen this map, and don't want to. It seems way too large, unless it is a conquest map, maybe? But even so... it just seems so dreadfully boring to play (see bragelon castle description for more info).
al_qobabConquest, I assume? Even so, looks pretty stale... Idk, MIGHT be fun for conquest, would have to play it to see. Definitely seems too large for siege.
fallen_abbeySame as above map, only this one might be a little more confusing and maze-y.
I figured since kwhy/ted/miss went through the trouble of digging up these few older ones that I minds well do a brief review of them... maybe some can be brought back?
native_turin_castleThis map was always alright, never saw a reason for its removal.
castle_21_exterior_cSee above. This one was always something unique, and I kinda miss it.
castle_27_exterior_cThis one was both fun and not fun... it depends on how stacked one side is. Personally I never minded it, but I can see why some might be glad it is gone. I'm impartial, but I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing it return.
Wow, that took even longer than expected... somewhere between 45mins-1 hr (hopefully it takes significantly less time to read!). Good thing I had nothing else to do tonight (other than play crpg of course).
Anyways, as I said before, I spent some time on this, so I would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration when planning out a new NA siege rotation. If others have any thoughts to add I can always edit this post to turn it into one mega post consisting of all our collective thoughts.
