High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)

[Algarn]

QQ thread by a bad builder about his bad build. 18 is archer strength, going over that has always been a stupid choice. You made a stupid choice, now respec or retire and make better choices.

18/18 has and always will be best archer build, skills are

6 Powerstrike, 6 Powerdraw, 6 athletics, 6 weaponmaster: at lvl 30 you are already overlevelled and can take 5 ironflesh, or save those points and become horse archer at lvl 32, or be a real hero and be a shielder/archer.

Any other archer build is for bundle of stickss: Mount and Blade has no inventory for horses, but it is VERY FUCKING CLEAR that all the bows with "bow-sheaths" are modelled to look like saddle attachments for horse archers, and should carry the tag "Unusable on foot". bundle of stickss who use these bows on foot look fucking retarded.

So you are gonna want to use of the 3 remaining bows: Bow is quite nice but lacks dmg, so longbow or warbow you are left with: There's no reason to go past 18, ever, never has been, and your desperate attempt to milk more damage out of the easiest class to play in the game is pathetic.

Did you actually read any of my post ? Your " damage milking" is in fact the worst choice you could make for a build, since you trade everything else. I wanted to do it for two reasons 1) Doing more damage to fucking armor crutchers on EU1, it actually worked until the bug removal, and 2) Being different of the fucking generic 18/24. Call me a retard if you want, you seem to be a real case, insulting me because I actually want something to be changed.

Also, will make a quick comparison of bows :

Horn Bow

missile speed: 44
weight: 2.7
accuracy: 103
difficulty: 5
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 44
thrust damage: 24 cut
slots: 1

Long Bow
missile speed: 40
weight: 4
accuracy: 106
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 52
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 31 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback

By taking a longbow, you lose 4 missile speed (huge difference, even if it doesn't looks like), gain 1.3 weight, get less accuracy (accuracy being related to damages, the longbow's 106 accuracy isn't enough to make it accurate compared to the other bows), lose 7 speed rating (quite a lot to me), get one more slot occupied and increased repairs on top of that.

I don't want anything to be nerfed, I would simply like to make str archers viable again by increasing the wpf that low agi builds get, because every problem here is related to wpf. I don't want to see 27/21 , 24/24 or any other build become OP tho, so, the wpf increase should limit to 18 agi with 6 WM. Passed it, it should become a negligible difference compared to what it is currently.

[San]

You lost 8-9wpf (42 using old formula ^ 1.1 = 61), but your bows gained 2 accuracy. Wouldn't that help you?

[Algarn]

No, because I lost a bit of damages due to the wpf, and got even more slower than before. And it should have been 3 accuracy points to keep it like before, it's like the little something about the size of the crosshair I got before is gone, regardless of the weight of my armor
I can't tell how accurate I was before, since I don't have any video of my gameplay before the patch, and I don't know if you have the access to the version pre patch to test builds and draw a comparison.

[San]

Your own experience is fine. I was always under the impression that you would feel like it is more accurate now. +1 accuracy is close to 13 wpf I believe. Just surprising is all.

[Hirlok]

QQ thread by a bad builder about his bad build. 18 is archer strength, going over that has always been a stupid choice. You made a stupid choice, now respec or retire and make better choices.

I know that it is beyond reason to argue, the bias of this mod is not going to change in its remaining lifetime...

Yet: you hit exactly the point.

No class is useless beyond 18 str, except archers. I always used to be a pd9 or pd10 guy in the old times, but we have been effectively limited to pd6 for a long time now, and it is ridic.

And while I am too bored to do testing and "proving" and .... ... ... - my agi archer with mw nomad/tatar is doing considerably better than my main with mw longbow/bodkins (18/24) in terms of accuracy, shot speed, missile speed and "felt" (I have no "show names cheat") damage. And my last test with pd9 was a desaster.

 Too bad being a running agi pussy is not my playstyle.... 

Overall I have more fun with my thrower atm

[San]

I don't want anything to be nerfed, I would simply like to make str archers viable again by increasing the wpf that low agi builds get, because every problem here is related to wpf. I don't want to see 27/21 , 24/24 or any other build become OP tho, so, the wpf increase should limit to 18 agi with 6 WM. Passed it, it should become a negligible difference compared to what it is currently.

I think the problem stems from tying wpf to damage as well as the curve. It should be decoupled with a more lenient wpf curve. It would be easier to balance if things weren't tied together so much (PD and accuracy, wpf and damage, etc)

(click to show/hide)

I would prefer this curve over the current one:

(click to show/hide)

sum formula: 15+55*WM+20*(WM*(WM+1)/2)+14*AGI -> 200+45*WM+15*(WM*(WM+1)/2)+15*AGI

This frontloads free wpf to new characters to a start of 71. Agility and WM still scales, but less heavily than before. I think that a 12wpf increase is suitable for high WM + 3agi since the reward for high athletics is already so great. I don't really have any qualms about the wpp cost.

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Pure builds:

1WM: 82
2WM: 100
3WM: 116
4WM: 131
5WM: 145
6WM: 158
7WM: 170
8WM: 182
9WM: 193
10WM: 204
11WM: 214
12WM: 224
13WM: 234
14WM: 244
15WM: 253

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0WM, Agi only:

3: 71
6: 80
9: 87
12: 94
15: 100
18: 106
21: 111
24: 116
27: 121
30: 125
33: 130
36: 134
39: 138
42: 141
45: 145
The free wpf is still tame compared to the past when a level 30 gets 111 wpf and level 36 123 wpf before putting any points in weapon master. It has been roughly a year, so I think there has been enough time to analyze the effects. I also don't think a free respec is necessary, only WPF resets.

Edit: formula change from 10 to 11-12 wpf increase at high WM

[Algarn]

You're right, this formula seems to be much better than the old one, it would maybe give a slight chance to full str builds to exist, and agi builds would still end up with more wpf than strength builds in general, keeping the superiority on speed, and a better hybridization. It would solve the problem entirely to me, having more wpf is the thing that would fix the problem of str archery being left appart. Don't know if it's going to be implemented, but it'd be a fine choice to make it happen.

[Templar_Steevee]

...
By taking a longbow, you lose 4 missile speed (huge difference, even if it doesn't looks like), gain 1.3 weight, get less accuracy (accuracy being related to damages, the longbow's 106 accuracy isn't enough to make it accurate compared to the other bows), lose 7 speed rating (quite a lot to me), get one more slot occupied and increased repairs on top of that.
...

I think I'm a walking proof that long bow is best bow.

coming back to thing i quoted:
Disadvantages like one more slot and high repairs aren't important for an archer. You don't need a devastating melee weapon to kill with arrows and a old player like you should forget about upkeep long time ago.

qq about long bows accuracy is yours problem because of your bulid, you made a bad choice as Guy noticed before.

Speed rating and missile speed are just things ppl have to get used to it like melee have to used to weapons lenght and speed.

Weight is importand only if you wanna kite. Anyway look how huge long bow is compared to horn. It would be strange if those bows have same weight.

All i want to say about your qq is a question: Why you are using long bow? take a horn bow instead if it is so suprior.

[Algarn]

I did. But what's the use of 9 PD if you don't want to use the bow with the best damage. I've never, in this thread, asked for a buff for the long bow, or a nerf on nomad bows (althought they deserve it sometimes). I tested 18/24, longbow was as accurate as before the patch, so buffing the longbow would result into a massive use of it. San suggested to change the wpf formula, and it's alright, since it will go to the pre patch situation for 27/12, 30/12, 27/15, 24/18, etc ... without buffing other archers or having to change anything related to the bow balance.

Also, note that my build wasn't that much a bad choice, since it worked really well before the patch, being called bad builder is the irony.

[San]

It's only +6 wpf which won't really solve your issue even if people decide to change it. I'm still confused how it's more inaccurate for you with the bow accuracy increases. Additionally, Agi archers took a larger hit so they should be comparatively easier to deal with than before, so I'm wondering why it's more difficult or if there was an error involved at any point.

[Tydeus]

It's only +6 wpf which won't really solve your issue even if people decide to change it. I'm still confused how it's more inaccurate for you with the bow accuracy increases. Additionally, Agi archers took a larger hit so they should be comparatively easier to deal with than before, so I'm wondering why it's more difficult or if there was an error involved at any point.

It's very likely not, since every point of accuracy is in fact worth 13 wpf. He probably just has lower hold time before his reticule begins to spread, which would reduce his effective accuracy rate if he's not adjusting his playstyle.

[Algarn]

It's very likely not, since every point of accuracy is in fact worth 13 wpf. He probably just has lower hold time before his reticule begins to spread, which would reduce his effective accuracy rate if he's not adjusting his playstyle.

You mean that lower hold time isn't related to bad accuracy ?  What the hell... That's what was strange indeed, my reticule was very slightly smaller than before, but still, the holding time was really reduced. Thought it was me, but no... I'm really surprised that after 3 years of patches and mechanics changes, there are some weird mechanics like this one. And as I said, I tried to play with an armor set which doesn't bring any wpf reduction, but I wasn't able to increase succesfully the duration of the hold.

(click to show/hide)

Really, with mechanics like that, it must be a pain in the arse to balance the game.

[San]

I was told that hold time was tied to accuracy. It would be easier if it was something separate that can be tweaked or at least have a visible variable for it

[Tomas]

I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.

I recently tested 24/18 and 30/12 on my STF though and I didn't find them to be lacking. Furthermore, I have not only thoroughly tested damages in game, I have also tested accuracy (and not just reticule size) as well. Again, the conclusion I have come to is that when you consider the potential that each build has, the actual potential is higher for str builds, but they're also more specialized, as one would expect under a perfectly balanced setting. As you specialize, you sacrifice, else you gain for free.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical that you ask for irrefutable proof from Algarn that STRvsAGI archery is unbalanced and yet offer no irrefutable proof yourself to show that it is balanced?!

Elerion is the only one I have so far seen even attempt to do this properly but you shot him down with subjective stuff about cavalry and map types.

Personally I believe that class/build balance will always have a subjective element and so to ask people to irrefutably prove stuff before you will make a change is just wrong.  Simply disagree with him and be done with it.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

AFAIK hold time is affected by accuracy, WPF, and power draw over the maximum damage boost (anything over difficulty + 4).

I'm not even sure that accuracy boosts from WPF affect it directly, it might just be a side effect of having a faster draw speed.

As much as I enjoy playing a stronkcher that can shove people several meters away, I can't say that it isn't objectively weaker in most cases as a ranged build. Increasing PD/PT/Ironflesh/(to a lesser extent, PS, since melee speed bonus is still big enough to give some wiggle room for effectiveness changes, especially with cut damage) for any build has the same weakness: This is a game where HP does not matter at all as long as you have 1 HP left.

The less hits you require to kill someone, the harder it is for you to get any effect from increasing your damage.
Similarly, the less hits you take to die, the harder it is to get any surviving hit gains from STR/IF.
This is a crude example where someone has 60 hp:

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Damage                                   Hits to Kill
     1                                     60
     2                                     30 (-30)
     3                                     20 (-10)
     4                                     15 (-5)
     5                                     12 (-3)
     6                                     10 (-2)
     7                                     9  (-1)
     8                                     8  (-1)
     9                                     7  (-1)
     10                                    6  (-1)
     11                                    6  (-0!)
     12                                    5  (-1)
     13                                    5  (-0!)
     14                                    5  (-0!)
     15                                    4  (-1)
     16...19                               4  (-0!)
     20                                    3  (-1)
     21...29                               3   (-0)
     30                                    2   (-1)
     30...59                               2   (-0)
     60+                                   1   (-1)
I can't really say much as far as how str/balanced/agi hybrid effectiveness goes for archers though, I haven't played the class enough for that.