Author Topic: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)  (Read 4611 times)

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Offline Algarn

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+4
Well, I've been thinking about giving up archery, since the last patch broke my build/way to play. I know I will get downvoted, but I have to post it.

I've been using damage calculator, recommended by San, and tested three builds, with a longbow +3's damage, included bodkins.
 The target armor is 55, which is the current EU1 state. The builds are : 27/15 (mine, completely destroyed, you will see why), 18/24 (Standard archer build), and a build I saw used by Druzhina Tamerlan, 18/30 only archery -> 210 wpf.

Just look at the effective wpf, and the real average damage.

On those three builds, I tested my stuff (Byrnie, leather gloves, rus cavalry boots, and roman helmet with veil). Whatever others will say, it's not that heavy compared to Steevee's stuff (Brigandine with aketon, Arena helmet, mail mittens, and green and purple hose).

Just admire, the "Slight buff from Tydeus".

(click to show/hide)

As people would say, "stop wearing heavy shit", I tested the same build without any armor.

(click to show/hide)

Then, I changed the build for 18/24, this is with the same armor I described.

(click to show/hide)

And without now.

(click to show/hide)

Then, the last one, pure build level 35/36 from Tamerlan.

(click to show/hide)

Without armor now :

(click to show/hide)

Honestly, I can't run, I can't spam/backpedal/do any footwork, I am less accurate and draw my bow with much more time than every agi archer, and I do less damage. The only good thing is the trajectory of the arrow. Well played there, I trade damage, moving speed, acuraccy, drawing time, wpf in melee for a better missile speed.

Look at the medium damage, and the effective wpf, 27/15 got two times less effective wpf than 18/24, and three less times than 18/30. Still 27/15 isn't doing anything better about anything related to damage. I didn't test 21/24, 24/24, or other dedicated archer builds, since those two ones were enough to show the bullshit going on.

I'm simply tired to see any archer with a horn bow doing more damage than me with 9 PD. Lost Something around 90 millions of XP to respec to that shit, before it gets destroyed. If you balancers can't be arsed to solve internal balance into archery by making strenght ranged builds somewhat viable, at least, give me a free respec. Nothing personal, but I'm somehow pissed off to see my arrows scratching on anything better than a mail.

Note that this problem related to Power draw is also true for Power Throw. When I see the damages from Fin (15/24), and Mendro (30/15), I truly ask myself if that's even worth to play anything outside of the mainstream builds like 18/24.

QQ, mod iz dead.



Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 01:50:03 am »
-2
Honestly, I can't run, I can't spam/backpedal/do any footwork, I am less accurate and draw my bow with much more time than every agi archer, and I do less damage. The only good thing is the trajectory of the arrow. Well played there, I trade damage, moving speed, acuraccy, drawing time, wpf in melee for a better missile speed.

Look at the medium damage, and the effective wpf, 27/15 got two times less effective wpf than 18/24, and three less times than 18/30. Still 27/15 isn't doing anything better about anything related to damage. I didn't test 21/24, 24/24, or other dedicated archer builds, since those two ones were enough to show the bullshit going on.

I'm simply tired to see any archer with a horn bow doing more damage than me with 9 PD. Lost Something around 90 millions of XP to respec to that shit, before it gets destroyed. If you balancers can't be arsed to solve internal balance into archery by making strenght ranged builds somewhat viable, at least, give me a free respec. Nothing personal, but I'm somehow pissed off to see my arrows scratching on anything better than a mail.

Note that this problem related to Power draw is also true for Power Throw. When I see the damages from Fin (15/24), and Mendro (30/15), I truly ask myself if that's even worth to play anything outside of the mainstream builds like 18/24.

QQ, mod iz dead.
You do more damage, especially compared to a build of your same level and dedication, even your own screenshots show that. You haven't made a good comparison if you're comparing a level 30 build to a level 35 build; complaining about the difference in effectiveness is pointless. The only thing you've done, is proven what has already been proven, that levels matter more than anything else. It's not a problem with archery (although it's largest with archery), it's a problem with all level 33+ builds(and we are trying to address it.)

Stop comparing builds that have varying amounts of attribute points spent, those builds are NOT equivalent.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2014, 01:55:32 am »
+1
Bagge is (or was) a level 35 archer, with 184 wpf, or something around. I think you don't understand that LEVEL DOESN'T MATTER HERE. You can simply test a stf with 27/15 or a 18/24. Level isn't involved at all in this experiment, except into the last one. I miss all my arrows because I got 40 fucking effective wpf in archery. I don't care about a fix to be honest, since agi builds always were superior to the strenght based ones. I simply want a free respec, nothing more.

PS: how can you know how good is 27/15 Tydeus, your main is 18/24.

PPS : I'm talking into DPS. I shoot with less accuracy, speed, etc , and only do 5 more damages per shot. My statement is therefore right, even if the damage per shot is higher. Strenght archers do less damage than the agility archers.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 02:00:12 am by Algarn »

Offline San

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2014, 02:16:34 am »
0
The 18/21 you have is noticeably weaker. 27/15 is compared to 18/24, which is -5 damage, ~+4-5p. That means that the 27/15 with a Horn Bow would possibly outdamage the 18/24 with a Rus Bow with an extra slot for better gear/more ammo.

18-30 you compare to 30-18. 20 expected damage to 80 armor isn't bad.

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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 02:24:56 am »
0
I perfectly knew this thread would be somehow carefully ignored. Well, try it on NA1, EU1 if you think you can deal with ping. If you believe 27/15 is OP as fuck, test it first, and right after that, test 18/24 witht the same stuff, and bow. If you don't see any difference, then, we are both loosing our time here. Even 30/18 will not be that better than 18/24 or 18/27, but whatever, simply going to give my bows away, and start leveling a melee character, since it seems strenght archery is fine to you, and won't get anything changed from now.

PS : The build you made is without any armor penalty. I would be curious to see what it gives with a mail.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 02:28:21 am by Algarn »

Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 02:38:29 am »
-3
I perfectly knew this thread would be somehow carefully ignored.
The only people to have replied are those whose attention you actually need to get. I'm sorry that you don't like that fact that we saw a flaw in your analysis and pointed it out. You have two options though, either prove that your analysis is correct, which will be met with the balance change you desire, or continue to say stuff like the above, without actually accomplishing anything.

In light of what we see as a flawed analysis, we cannot merely take your word on it (succumb to bias), without sacrificing Intellectual Honesty (act in opposition of the apparent facts.) Sorry.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 11:39:59 am »
0
Yesterday I played with my archer and all i noticed that if you are slow you are dead.

Also if a veteran archer with 35 lvl going to shoot with someone with lvl 30 you have a suprior advantage (in my option is movement speed for dodging and better draw speed)

Last thing is that there is a missunderstanding to not to wear a good armor around 10 weight or slightly above in total. WPF reduction is starting over 10 (pls correct me if i'm wrong). So comparying like Algarn done here a good armored guy to naked my old friend dying in one hit (or two) is just wrong.

IMO If someone wants to play str archer shouldn't sacrifice wpf by wearing armor over 10 weight total, because he will have a bit better ability to collect DMG due to wigher STR->more hp.

Anyway give him respec ;)
Archer forever :D

Offline Elerion

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 02:15:08 pm »
+3
It's probably easier to analyze this by just comparing the gains from +3STR/+1PD vs +3AGI/+1WM from a balanced starting point.

Base (18/18, 6PD 6WM)
(click to show/hide)

STR (21/18, 7PD 6WM)
(click to show/hide)

AGI (18/21, 6PD 7WM)
(click to show/hide)

Here's the summary:
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By going Strength, you gain 12% damage and lose 11% WPF
By going Agi, you gain 4% damage and gain 13% WPF
So the Strength character has 8% more damage per arrow than the Agi character, but 21% less WPF

Archery is kind of weird though. More damage is always good, but at some point you have enough WPF to consistently hit typical shots on stationary targets, and then it really doesn't matter much above that. I honestly haven't played enough archer since coming back to tell where that WPF threshold after all the changes that have happened.

It does seem like Agi is clearly superior to Str until you hit that threshhold, though. Especially considering the benefits from agility (athletics, riding/HA, secondary weapon WPF) far outweigh the benefits from strength (HP, PS) for a typical archer.

EDIT: Fuck me, I forgot to set the calculator to pierce. No time to fix, but I'm sure the results aren't THAT different.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 02:39:50 pm by Elerion »

Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 03:25:52 pm »
-1
It's probably easier to analyze this by just comparing the gains from +3STR/+1PD vs +3AGI/+1WM from a balanced starting point.

Base (18/18, 6PD 6WM)
(click to show/hide)

STR (21/18, 7PD 6WM)
(click to show/hide)

AGI (18/21, 6PD 7WM)
(click to show/hide)

Here's the summary:
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By going Strength, you gain 12% damage and lose 11% WPF
By going Agi, you gain 4% damage and gain 13% WPF
So the Strength character has 8% more damage per arrow than the Agi character, but 21% less WPF

Archery is kind of weird though. More damage is always good, but at some point you have enough WPF to consistently hit typical shots on stationary targets, and then it really doesn't matter much above that. I honestly haven't played enough archer since coming back to tell where that WPF threshold after all the changes that have happened.

It does seem like Agi is clearly superior to Str until you hit that threshhold, though. Especially considering the benefits from agility (athletics, riding/HA, secondary weapon WPF) far outweigh the benefits from strength (HP, PS) for a typical archer.
The only thing I would disagree with (aside from you not using bodkins, which should favor the str build more) would be your last two sentences. One could easily come up with varying hypothetical scenarios that serve to benefit one build over the other, based on factors like how much cavalry there is, whether or not cav can access all locations close to the fighting, how large the map is (what your effective visual range/field of view is), archer:infantry ratios of both teams, whether or not you have any sort of protection.

I also cannot agree that the benefits from agility outweigh the benefits from strength. You listed "riding/ha," not only is riding irrelevant when talking about ground archers, the only time one would ever even consider getting HA would be after they've gotten riding. So you can actually think of it more as a penalty for getting riding (because it's considered mandatory to get HA if you get riding and use a ranged weapon.) Furthermore, as a person with a level 33 archer that has 6ps but 1 wpf in all melee proficiencies, I cannot agree that ps is so lacking in usefulness, simply because it doesn't make you swing faster. Because most hybrid archers are stuck with 0 or 1 slot weapons, their damage is often very low and being a hybrid that can't so easily split wpf 1:1, they're also often left choosing from weapons in the faster speed area (which generally results in the weapon having less damage, although sometimes, in the case of the italian falchion, it's less length).

What's more, is that by getting PS, you're not directly taking away from your archery potential. PS is irrelevant for archery yet still attainable due to archers needing PD(it doesn't affect how well one shoots in the slightest) while any amount of melee wpf you might get directly comes out of the pool that could be spent on your ranged wpf. It's only after your 7th point in PS that you potentially lose archery effectiveness (6 points convert into 3 attributes, and the last skill point for 1 more pd/wm, not a very favorable trade).

Athletics is certainly effective, but if you're going to melee you need the PS more than anything else, because as I have already established above, it's clear that your damage is going to be minimal. My 18/24 archer has 6 PS and 6 athletics, 8wm with 184 wpf into archery. Were it not for having to often fight other archers with 1s bows, I'd see no reason to get 184 wpf. You could then argue(which is often done), that it's only due to the meta (the apparent abundance of 1s bows), that high PD builds/2s bow builds are kept in check.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 03:47:12 pm »
0
The only people to have replied are those whose attention you actually need to get. I'm sorry that you don't like that fact that we saw a flaw in your analysis and pointed it out. You have two options though, either prove that your analysis is correct, which will be met with the balance change you desire, or continue to say stuff like the above, without actually accomplishing anything.

In light of what we see as a flawed analysis, we cannot merely take your word on it (succumb to bias), without sacrificing Intellectual Honesty (act in opposition of the apparent facts.) Sorry.

Tell me how to prove what I say, and I may do it. If you tell me what I have to do to convince you to buff/rebalance archery, I will be happy to do it. As I don't have any software to make ingame videos, I can ask someone who is willing to help me with that. But on your side, it would really help if you could simply test 27/15 on a stf and compare it to 18/24 on a stf, you will quickly understand why my biased and flawed analysis is somehow true.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 04:45:07 pm »
0
Tell me how to prove what I say, and I may do it. If you tell me what I have to do to convince you to buff/rebalance archery, I will be happy to do it. As I don't have any software to make ingame videos, I can ask someone who is willing to help me with that. But on your side, it would really help if you could simply test 27/15 on a stf and compare it to 18/24 on a stf, you will quickly understand why my biased and flawed analysis is somehow true.
I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.

I recently tested 24/18 and 30/12 on my STF though and I didn't find them to be lacking. Furthermore, I have not only thoroughly tested damages in game, I have also tested accuracy (and not just reticule size) as well. Again, the conclusion I have come to is that when you consider the potential that each build has, the actual potential is higher for str builds, but they're also more specialized, as one would expect under a perfectly balanced setting. As you specialize, you sacrifice, else you gain for free.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 05:25:09 pm »
0
I need some sort of irrefutable argument that would show agility's superiority over strength or 1s bow's superiority over 2s bows. You attempted this, but were unable to find an irrefutable argument. If I knew what exactly the argument would be that you could make, I'd have already made a proposal to rebalance archery. Unfortunately, what evidence there has been so far, isn't nearly good enough to justify a balance change.

I recently tested 24/18 and 30/12 on my STF though and I didn't find them to be lacking. Furthermore, I have not only thoroughly tested damages in game, I have also tested accuracy (and not just reticule size) as well. Again, the conclusion I have come to is that when you consider the potential that each build has, the actual potential is higher for str builds, but they're also more specialized, as one would expect under a perfectly balanced setting. As you specialize, you sacrifice, else you gain for free.

Ok, then lets go.

Horn bow is better than rus and long bow, for the following reason :

If the bow A, a powerful bow, got long loading time, bad accuracy, bad arrow trajectory, 2 slots (not able to take a decent side weapon), and high repair (not entering into the description of potential of the bow, simply saying that the worst bows (to me) are also the most expensive), it's enough to me to see that slightly higher damage is not sufficient to that. This bow A will do lets say 25 damage per shot.

Then, we got the bow B. The bow B, is a weapon with short loading time, pin point accuracy, huge missile speed, low price (lol), but got less damage per shot. It's doing 17 damage per shot.

Which bow is the best ? A or B ?  better damage, or accuracy + speed + short loading time.

Note that in crpg, low damage can be compensated by headshots (easy to land with bow B, since if you miss, you can almost fire another instant arrow) or simply by taking tatar or bodkin arrows.

To conclude my biased as fuck text, bow B> bow A, which means that horn bow and other nomad bows are generally better than longbow and rus bow.


This time, let's go for builds.

A good ranged build is a build allying moving speed, shooting speed, accuracy, ability to fight in melee,  damage with the bow.  Lets take level 31 builds

Build A : 18/24 at 31, or 18/21 at level 30

Moving speed : check
Shooting speed : check
accuracy : check
arrow trajectory : unchecked, actually shit with high tier bows
ability to fight in melee (footwork, wpf and shit) : check
damage : depends of the bow, target armor, etc.
As you seen on my screen shots, the damage wasn't that different from high str builds, still shooting much faster than str builds, so, "DPS" is therefore higher.

Build B :  27/15 on level 31, 24/15 on level 30

Moving speed : unchecked (clearly shit, can't kite, if you want to escape from death by dropping your bow, you still get caught by anyone with 6 athletics.)
shooting speed : unchecked (you are slower than any archer to shoot)
accuracy : unchecked  (simply terrible when you wear a bit more than the limit of weight before losing wpf)
arrow trajectory : checked (wow, the only thing you got when using a strength build).
ability to fight in melee : unchecked (you move too slowly to get enough speed bonus, plus you hit slowly and get spammed)
damage : checked (you do slightly more damage than agi builds), but what can you do when you miss your arrows half of the time, and have to wait 2.5 seconds to fire another one ? You got in fact lower "DPS" than agility archery builds.

I know, you will say it's biased as fuck, but what isn't in your way to balance the game ? ATM, strength archery is more like throwing on high distances, not a second way to play archery. You can't pretend to play archery if you don't even fill half of the requirements of a real archery build. People cried about that bug you fixed, it was only for my build something to not be completely fucked by agi archery builds. Once you removed it, builds like 18/24 got nerfed, but still, I barely got enough effective wpf to shoot with my build, and not enough to use the weapons of a strength archer, which are the high tier bows.





Offline San

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 05:33:58 pm »
0
I think we're getting nowhere trying to agree to a problem. What is your proposed solution?

Offline Tydeus

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 06:11:35 pm »
0
Ok, then lets go.

Horn bow is better than rus and long bow, for the following reason :

If the bow A, a powerful bow, got long loading time, bad accuracy, bad arrow trajectory, 2 slots (not able to take a decent side weapon), and high repair (not entering into the description of potential of the bow, simply saying that the worst bows (to me) are also the most expensive), it's enough to me to see that slightly higher damage is not sufficient to that. This bow A will do lets say 25 damage per shot.

Then, we got the bow B. The bow B, is a weapon with short loading time, pin point accuracy, huge missile speed, low price (lol), but got less damage per shot. It's doing 17 damage per shot.

Which bow is the best ? A or B ?  better damage, or accuracy + speed + short loading time.

Note that in crpg, low damage can be compensated by headshots (easy to land with bow B, since if you miss, you can almost fire another instant arrow) or simply by taking tatar or bodkin arrows.

To conclude my biased as fuck text, bow B> bow A, which means that horn bow and other nomad bows are generally better than longbow and rus bow.


This time, let's go for builds.

A good ranged build is a build allying moving speed, shooting speed, accuracy, ability to fight in melee,  damage with the bow.  Lets take level 31 builds

Build A : 18/24 at 31, or 18/21 at level 30

Moving speed : check
Shooting speed : check
accuracy : check
arrow trajectory : unchecked, actually shit with high tier bows
ability to fight in melee (footwork, wpf and shit) : check
damage : depends of the bow, target armor, etc.
As you seen on my screen shots, the damage wasn't that different from high str builds, still shooting much faster than str builds, so, "DPS" is therefore higher.

Build B :  27/15 on level 31, 24/15 on level 30

Moving speed : unchecked (clearly shit, can't kite, if you want to escape from death by dropping your bow, you still get caught by anyone with 6 athletics.)
shooting speed : unchecked (you are slower than any archer to shoot)
accuracy : unchecked  (simply terrible when you wear a bit more than the limit of weight before losing wpf)
arrow trajectory : checked (wow, the only thing you got when using a strength build).
ability to fight in melee : unchecked (you move too slowly to get enough speed bonus, plus you hit slowly and get spammed)
damage : checked (you do slightly more damage than agi builds), but what can you do when you miss your arrows half of the time, and have to wait 2.5 seconds to fire another one ? You got in fact lower "DPS" than agility archery builds.

I know, you will say it's biased as fuck, but what isn't in your way to balance the game ? ATM, strength archery is more like throwing on high distances, not a second way to play archery. You can't pretend to play archery if you don't even fill half of the requirements of a real archery build. People cried about that bug you fixed, it was only for my build something to not be completely fucked by agi archery builds. Once you removed it, builds like 18/24 got nerfed, but still, I barely got enough effective wpf to shoot with my build, and not enough to use the weapons of a strength archer, which are the high tier bows.
Your comparisons aren't appropriate, you're comparing unequal builds.

What you should be comparing, is an 18/24 to a 24/18 with both at the exact same level or 27/15 compared to 24/18 at the exact same level. Instead, the comparisons you make favor one, even before you start analyzing effectiveness. Furthermore, you've made the assumption that differences in weapon effectiveness aren't related to builds. That is, you've assumed that the difference between 1s and 2s bows with an 18/21 build, is the same at 21/18 or 24/15 or 24/18 even. This isn't actually the case in reality though, because soak/reduce do not have the same reductions in damage at any given amount of raw damage. Meaning that stacking damage(increasing PD and base weapon damage), much like stacking armor, grants a non-linear increase to effectiveness such that each point of raw damage results in a larger percentile increase in effective damage at any given armor level.

You've looked at 55 armor at only 35 damage, now change the amount of damage to reflect that of a 1s bow, then raise the armor value and do this again. You can't just look at the "average" because the extremities (very low and very high armor values) result in disproportionate changes in effectiveness with each weapon or build.

Edit: I guess I should say something about the top half of your post.

Your argument is essentially that 3m^3 of feathers weighs more than 1m^3 of steel because it takes up more volume. You're not actually representing "Which bow is the best ? A or B ?  better damage, or accuracy + speed + short loading time." with any quantities, so it's nothing more than a simple analogy. You can't prove anything like this since you're trying to argue that the quantities are problematic but not actually making a statement about the quantities of each.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 06:32:56 pm by Tydeus »
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character

Offline BlindGuy

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Re: High power draw builds, the truth (Poorly camouflaged QQ post)
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 06:30:31 pm »
+1
QQ thread by a bad builder about his bad build. 18 is archer strength, going over that has always been a stupid choice. You made a stupid choice, now respec or retire and make better choices.

18/18 has and always will be best archer build, skills are

6 Powerstrike, 6 Powerdraw, 6 athletics, 6 weaponmaster: at lvl 30 you are already overlevelled and can take 5 ironflesh, or save those points and become horse archer at lvl 32, or be a real hero and be a shielder/archer.

Any other archer build is for bundle of stickss: Mount and Blade has no inventory for horses, but it is VERY FUCKING CLEAR that all the bows with "bow-sheaths" are modelled to look like saddle attachments for horse archers, and should carry the tag "Unusable on foot". bundle of stickss who use these bows on foot look fucking retarded.

So you are gonna want to use of the 3 remaining bows: Bow is quite nice but lacks dmg, so longbow or warbow you are left with: There's no reason to go past 18, ever, never has been, and your desperate attempt to milk more damage out of the easiest class to play in the game is pathetic.
I don't know enough

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