Author Topic: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?  (Read 8801 times)

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Offline DeathDealler

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 08:36:54 am »
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1. Remove ticks gold in сRPG battle (gold you can get only in strategus for the battles and work)
2. Gold from Strategus will go to cRPG for upkeep that will keep inflation at strategus.
3. Average earnings gold per day for strategus equate to the average amount of gold for repair heavy armor for 6 hours of play.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 12:27:17 pm »
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As Plazek says, we would need a money sink in Strat, perhaps something that could always be bought for money from "chadz" or the equivalent of a central bank.

I've got my own theories of how the economy will unfold, but it always relies on two assumptions:

The amount of items and gold will be ever-increasing.
This would allow to give the players the feeling they are prospering and building up and getting stronger. I doubt that warfare will be able to consume all the growth, as warfare should also be profitable to encourage some good old action and blood for the players.

That there is a central bank where players can buy useful items for gold directly

If this is the case which i hope and think it will be, one have to ask what what will grow faster:

The amount of gold and demand for it?
The amount of items and demand for it?

This decides if there will be inflation, or deflation. In an inflating economy, much more gold than items are produced, and so items increase in price. This would benefit player hoarding items, and sitting with as little gold as possible, as it's value is disappearing from day to day. On the other hand, a deflating economy would reward players for hoarding gold, as they can get more and more items for every day passing.

Of course, the balance between these two things will never be perfect.. and things will swing either one or the other way. Huge wars could influence the balance etc.. Of course, chadz could set up a common Bank of chadz, and giving players money for putting money there, influencing the value of money by interest rate.

Im no economist by any means, but in my mind it would work to set up an inflation economy, then controlling it with interest.

What you think?
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Offline Tristan

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Offline Topsnus

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 01:06:19 am »
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As Plazek says, we would need a money sink in Strat, perhaps something that could always be bought for money from "chadz" or the equivalent of a central bank.
That there is a central bank where players can buy useful items for gold directly

If this is the case which i hope and think it will be, one have to ask what what will grow faster:

The amount of gold and demand for it?
The amount of items and demand for it?

This decides if there will be inflation, or deflation. In an inflating economy, much more gold than items are produced, and so items increase in price. This would benefit player hoarding items, and sitting with as little gold as possible, as it's value is disappearing from day to day. On the other hand, a deflating economy would reward players for hoarding gold, as they can get more and more items for every day passing.

Of course, the balance between these two things will never be perfect.. and things will swing either one or the other way. Huge wars could influence the balance etc.. Of course, chadz could set up a common Bank of chadz, and giving players money for putting money there, influencing the value of money by interest rate.

Im no economist by any means, but in my mind it would work to set up an inflation economy, then controlling it with interest.

What you think?

I am strongly against anything where money earned in cRPG can be used to buy items or anything is strategus. Then we will end up with the same problem as last time, where the only strategy in strategus is to get all of your members on cRPG and grind a shitload of cash. The strat economy must be self-contained, and entirely independent of the cRPG economy. If it isn't, than there will be no strategy in strategus, and then, what is the point?

I MIGHT be okay with allowing 1 way transfers from strat to cRPG, although i think that would severly screw up the upkeep system in cRPG, thus leading to black armored people everywhere.

Best solution is to have an entirely separate economy.

Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2011, 08:03:27 am »
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I MIGHT be okay with allowing 1 way transfers from strat to cRPG, although i think that would severly screw up the upkeep system in cRPG, thus leading to black armored people everywhere.

Thats pretty much the point, chadz wants players to be able to wear black armor on plated chargers all the time, but at the expense of Strategus holdings.

Still, Strat to cRPG is still the best, allows people to pay for mercenaries, even though nobody at higher levels has any need for money anymore, they might be interested in hoarding their money to purchase heirlooms and running around in their plate longer. Prevents players with massive amounts of money in cRPG from starting in the new strategus with an unfair advantage of people who didn't abuse the marketplace.
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2011, 01:53:36 pm »
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how to spend money

- Trainer in towns and castles with population with stable max population and a player who gives the training, he has to be a higher level for that purpose.

f.e. you have to pay 2 gold to gain 1 xp.
It takes time. 1 hour = 3600xp, per day that would be 86400xp to a price of 172800 gold
and you still would have to pay taxes.

or not time depending
2000k gold for a skill point (perhaps increasing depending on your lvl and how many skillpoints you already have in the particular area)
or
100k gold for a wpp

The trainer himself gets more then with a normal job but not the amounts the other players pay.

- 700k gold for a heirloom point
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Offline InqWiper

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 02:55:58 pm »
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I dont get how there are no money sinks in strategus. Where do items and soldiers come from? Slaves? How does the economy work in single player? You get gold for towns when they pay taxes and then you can spend them in towns when buying supplies. Is everything generated for free in Strategus? I think you should still be able to pruchase things from towns whether they be your or others towns. Work and soldiers should not be free.

Sorry if I come off as an idiot but I never played strategus and have no idea how it worked/will work. I just dont see why it should be a problem with money sinks. You should lose money when you hire soldiers, when you hire mercenaries, when you buy weapons/armour/horses/siege equipment.

Now I may be looking a little too much into the future but I think you should also be able to spend money on improving your town to for example be able to increase its production of grain or wood or weapons or whatever you want it to produce but you should still have to buy the items they produce, workers dont work for free. You should also be able to increase the size of the town by pouring money into it thus increasing your ability to recruit from towns etc. Ofcourse a big town would be an attractive target for enemies so you should also be able to put money in defenses. IN theory I think you should be able to start out as a small village and then grow into a large town with castles and walls. This would also change the type of battlefield you fight in when there is a battle over the town. Improvements also need to take time but the more money your pour on the omprovements the faster it should take to complete but not at a linjear rate. Twice the amount of gold should not result in production rate builg doubled but maybe boosted 50% and 4 times the gold should boost it by 75% etc. Anyway dreaming too far I think so I will just stop myself right here :-)

I dont see how it has to be a problem being able to transfer money either way. The only problem I see at the moment is that there is too much gold floating around. All that is needed at the moment is an increase of prices compared to normal single player. It is now for example normal for people to have one million gold. If you increase the price of everything based on single player cost 100 times then a sword in strategus would now cost 200 000 which would not make anyone very rich in strategus. Another way would be to keep normal SP prices and cut everyones gold to 1/100 but then you would also have to decrease the gold income in cRPG to about 1 gold per tick instead of 50 and also decrease upkeep, maybe not by as much if you want more diversity on the battelfield.

Income for a warlord or a trader in stragetus should far outweigh the income in cRPG. This way warlords in strategus can use any equipment they want in cRPG making them actually look like a lord when it says a lord entered the battlefield ;) Gold could be farmed in cRPG and put into strategus but if you have to farm as a peasant for a day in cRPG to be able to buy a normal sword in strategus I dont see a problem.

I really dont see how this could not be solved.

Anyone with insight in old strategus care to enlighten me about how it worked or why it could not work like this?
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Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2011, 04:50:36 pm »
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the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.

Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2011, 05:04:54 pm »
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Seems to me that simply adding troop upkeep, armor repairs and food costs would add quite a gold sink. A gold sink is necessary, but that's not enough to fix the problem of grinding crpg just to transfer gold to strategus. Limiting how many troops can be recruited every day from all locations would help tremendously here. This adds a value to troops, not by some arbitrarily set static number, but because of supply and demand. It shouldn't be 1 troop per hour of work. It should be something like:

Toops have no cap to how many can be bough at a time or over any period of time but, every troop that gets bought from the same location adds 10g to the price of the next troop and every 5 minutes 1 troop gets added that lowers the cost of troops by 10g to a minimum of 500g. Basically, if you've played AoE, you know what I'm talking about. How the market works in that game would be rather good for crpg/strat I believe, the only difference is that troops get added every 5 minutes. For resources like food and metals for armor, it should still be time based so that players have to choose between lots of poorly armored troops, few well armored troops, or taking forever to get many well armored troops while having to pay upkeep for troops while you wait to recruit more/outfit them.

There shouldn't be a problem transferring gold to and from strat/crpg. If there is a problem with grinding in crpg and transferring your gold and abusing the system, it's because gold is too easy to get in crpg, not because anything is wrong with strategus.
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Offline Sharky

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2011, 05:37:53 pm »
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Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.
+1, all the previous suggestion are interesting just if crpg money can't be transferred in strategus. I hope that people want the strategus to be actually a strategy game, i can't call strategy running around in crpg on siege mode dressed as a peasant

Also tydeus, it's true that gold is too easy obtainable on crpg, but current changes (market and dtv) just made the problem worse, and anyway the manteinance system means that even if you nerf gold gain, whoever put cheaper gear gets more money in the long run.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 05:46:51 pm by Sharky »

Offline InqWiper

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2011, 05:57:55 pm »
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Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.
Thats not very nice calling my ideas sucky. The point of decreasing income in cRPG by ALOT is that you can pretty much eliminate the cRPG grind for gold to be used in strategus. What you will then have is the question if you want gold easily earned in strategus pumped into cRPG. In my opinion it should not be a problem if you increase the cost difference between lower tier and higher tier gear. If you earn 1 gold per minute in cRPG at x1 lets say that earns you 2 gold per minute average. That is 120 gold per hour. 10 hours grind per day gives you 1200 gold. That is enough maybe to give one soldier basic gear? Still sounds like a problem? Increase all item costs in strategus tenfold. Now you need 100 hours cRPG grind to arm one soldier. See where Im going?

With repair costs being higher relative to income compared to what it is now you would see less tincans and heavy cav. These players would mostly be highly paid mercs, traders, lords, kings etc that already earn enough gold in strategus that they feel they can use it for fun and showing off in cRPG. People not earning alot of gold in strategus would not be able to use high end gear in cRPG and there would be a financial class difference reflected from strategus. You may have different opinions on whether this is good or bad but I think its pretty cool.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2011, 06:10:56 pm »
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+1, all the previous suggestion are interesting just if crpg money can't be transferred in strategus. I hope that people want the strategus to be actually a strategy game, i can't call strategy running around in crpg on siege mode dressed as a peasant

Also tydeus, it's true that gold is too easy obtainable on crpg, but current changes (market and dtv) just made the problem worse, and anyway the manteinance system means that even if you nerf gold gain, whoever put cheaper gear gets more money in the long run.
I don't see how the market has made the problem worse, though I certainly agree that DTV has. The market doesn't create gold, it creates a flow of gold. The maintenance system definitely needs worked on as well.
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Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2011, 06:13:30 pm »
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I am not here to be nice. I am here to advocate my ideas for what I think is best for the game. If I say something that you think would be bad for the game I hope you would also have the courage in your conviction to say what you thought.

Sure I see your idea. I get it. I think a lot of people would not like being dependent on Strategus for their CRPG gold either. I think the further apart and less connected to one another that these two games are the better and that if they must be connected I hope it will be as superficial as possible. Thus this link you suggest that would entwine them closer together, does not get my support.

Offline InqWiper

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2011, 06:36:38 pm »
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I am not here to be nice. I am here to advocate my ideas for what I think is best for the game. If I say something that you think would be bad for the game I hope you would also have the courage in your conviction to say what you thought.

Sure I see your idea. I get it. I think a lot of people would not like being dependent on Strategus for their CRPG gold either. I think the further apart and less connected to one another that these two games are the better and that if they must be connected I hope it will be as superficial as possible. Thus this link you suggest that would entwine them closer together, does not get my support.
Yeah, fair enough.
I think I would also prefer to keep the financial systems seperate, maybe even the whole systems. I merely wished to poke some holes in the impossibility theories  :)

I am also very much interrested in continued discussion about the financial system of strategus.
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Offline Sharky

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Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2011, 07:00:46 pm »
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I don't see how the market has made the problem worse, though I certainly agree that DTV has. The market doesn't create gold, it creates a flow of gold. The maintenance system definitely needs worked on as well.
Some people with market deals is making tons of money.