Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses

[Tydeus]

Initially I was thinking of only doing one of two things. Giving it to the 200+ length (Bamboo, Long Spear, Pike) or to the 185 and longer weapons (the above, plus the longest bi-directions, which also happen to be the most thrust oriented.)

[Ulter]

How about having the bonus only apply when the piker is standing still? To simulate spear bracing?

[Grumbs]

Initially I was thinking of only doing one of two things. Giving it to the 200+ length (Bamboo, Long Spear, Pike) or to the 185 and longer weapons (the above, plus the longest bi-directions, which also happen to be the most thrust oriented.)

Couldn't it include the English Bill? Usually not too bothered about realism but wouldnt make much sense to not include that

[Tydeus]

Couldn't it include the English Bill? Usually not too bothered about realism but wouldnt make much sense to not include that

Right, but if we're including the English Bill, we should probably include the Partisan as well. If we're including those, which are fairly overhead dominant, shouldn't we include the slightly shorter, more thrust oriented Ashwood and Awl Pike as well? This is how I came to "greaterthan 160 length" which is what I am currently using.

[San]

Eh, I'm really only fond of it for the long spear/pike so they're used over those shorter weapons with a task they're supposed to be excelling at. They are only mediocre at it right now because of low damage and weakness up-close against cav that can bump stab/slash. Same for throwing lances, since you'll use a good amount of your ammo before taking a horse down, making jarids/throwing spears better at the task that the throwing lance should excel at.

[MURDERTRON]

Pikes and long spears are doing just fine in Strat last night's battle was a testament to that.  What this means is, when used properly with a team, its a great weapon.  When used on its own for soloing, its not.  You shouldn't buff something because people refuse to use teamwork on battle.  If this means they are essentially a Strat only weapon, I won't lose any sleep over it.

[Tydeus]

No to the Bamboo Spear? It's often considered to be too long for anything other than anti-cav, it's certainly not reliable in melee fights.

There's always the possibility to having differing degrees of bonus damage to horses, the bonuses don't all have to be the same.

Pikes and long spears are doing just fine in Strat last night's battle was a testament to that.  What this means is, when used properly with a team, its a great weapon.  When used on its own for soloing, its not.  You shouldn't buff something because people refuse to use teamwork on battle.  If this means they are essentially a Strat only weapon, I won't lose any sleep over it.

I think what you mean to say is that in strat random players (those not using a pike) are generally able to achieve more against a single reared horse, than on battle. This shouldn't come as a surprise though, often on strat everyone is bunched together closely(this doesn't necessarily mean more teamwork) and there are usually enough pikemen on, to spread throughout the team so there's never one far away.

This isn't just your normal case of increased effectiveness as item count increases either (like with archery, throwing, cavalry, and somewhat crossbows). Unlike ranged or cav, only having a single pikeman for a full team, won't really grant you much (as an anti-cav weapon), even if the other team only has one cav player. 30+ players simply span too much ground for one pikeman to cover, due the cav's mobility. Furthermore, it's not as though the pikeman often(or even can) rear and kill a horse from full to dead all on its own, especially against any of the better horses. More damage vs horses won't really change too much to be honest, especially if it's true that as things stand now, the pikeman by himself is mostly useless.

I don't think this argument really holds up, especially considering the other arguments I could have made. After reading your post I had to take a step back to gather my thoughts as I felt there were so many things wrong with it (still, it's a seemingly logical thought, although obviously biased.)

[San]

Perhaps. I've always thought the bamboo spear was a great weapon with 91 speed (faster than most others that long) and usability with shield that makes it even longer and provides protection all at a cheap price.

Edit: To clarify, I think the speed difference by itself aids it enough where it doesn't need it. I wouldn't mind if it still has it, though, since its power is weak regardless.

[MURDERTRON]

No to the Bamboo Spear? It's often considered to be too long for anything other than anti-cav, it's certainly not reliable in melee fights.

There's always the possibility to having differing degrees of bonus damage to horses, the bonuses don't all have to be the same.
I think what you mean to say is that in strat random players (those not using a pike) are generally able to achieve more against a single reared horse, than on battle. This shouldn't come as a surprise though, often on strat everyone is bunched together closely(this doesn't necessarily mean more teamwork) and there are usually enough pikemen on, to spread throughout the team so there's never one far away.

This isn't just your normal case of increased effectiveness as item count increases either (like with archery, throwing, cavalry, and somewhat crossbows). Unlike ranged or cav, only having a single pikeman for a full team, won't really grant you much (as an anti-cav weapon), even if the other team only has one cav player. 30+ players simply span too much ground for one pikeman to cover, due the cav's mobility. Furthermore, it's not as though the pikeman often(or even can) rear and kill a horse from full to dead all on its own, especially against any of the better horses. More damage vs horses won't really change too much to be honest, especially if it's true that as things stand now, the pikeman by himself is mostly useless.

I don't think this argument really holds up, especially considering the other arguments I could have made. After reading your post I had to take a step back to gather my thoughts as I felt there were so many things wrong with it (still, it's a seemingly logical thought, although obviously biased.)

Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload.  There are tons of good choices now.  The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander.  There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle.  Ramza and Dach come to mind.  Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.

[Tydeus]

Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload.  There are tons of good choices now.  The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander.  There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle.  Ramza and Dach come to mind.  Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.

Yeah, longspears are too strong vs cav because they allow players to stop a horse so that they can get off a Super-Duper-Wombo-Combo with one of those OP-vs-Ponies, backup weapons.

[MURDERTRON]

Yeah, longspears are too strong vs cav because they allow players to stop a horse so that they can get off a Super-Duper-Wombo-Combo with one of those OP-vs-Ponies, backup weapons.

I'm not saying they're too strong.  I'm saying they're strong enough, but have to be used correctly.  They aren't for heroes.

[Killer]

Pikemen/longspearmen can also carry a secondary weapon and drop the pike after the initial rear and unload.  There are tons of good choices now.  The spear and quarterstaff would probably be the most logical, but they could even carry a 1hander or 2hander.  There are a few players who were quite effective as anti cav that way on Battle.  Ramza and Dach come to mind.  Now, if a Strat commander doesn't want to grant a backup weapon for pikers, he will just have to deal with the consequences of being ill-prepared.

Whenever i rear a horse i never drop my long spear to pull out a secondary wep to kill it i just aim for the head, only time i ever drop my long spear is when I'm in either a duel or a bad 2 or more vs 1 where there is a shielder or somone faster than me or something like that

[imisshotmail]

i don't think long spears/pikes should do double damage to horses until it's changed so that you don't get reared from ridiculous angles that are basically horizontal to you (which i'm sure is impossible to fix), obviously the pike/long spear are the biggest offenders of this just due to their length.

i'd rather every melee weapon do double damage to horses than just specific ones for arbitrary reasons.


Although the long spear/pike probably deserve to be made Balanced again because they're not overly used except in Strategus and I don't think they're even good then.

[Byrdi]

i don't think long spears/pikes should do double damage to horses until it's changed so that you don't get reared from ridiculous angles that are basically horizontal to you (which i'm sure is impossible to fix), obviously the pike/long spear are the biggest offenders of this just due to their length.

i'd rather every melee weapon do double damage to horses than just specific ones for arbitrary reasons.


Although the long spear/pike probably deserve to be made Balanced again because they're not overly used except in Strategus and I don't think they're even good then.

Lol. This hardly never happens.

Though what does happen (alot more often) is that the shield of the rider covers the horses body from getting stabbed, resulting in no rear.
Honestly most of the time when it looks like the horse is reared from a weird angle it is because of lagg/desync.

@San:
I dont quite see why bamboo spear shouldn't get the extra damage to horses.
Realisticly speaking (though that doesnt matter much), it is very similar to longspear/pike.
But what does the speed of the spear have to do with whether or not it should get the buff?

TBH it doesnt really matter to me with the bamboo spear. I was just curious