Author Topic: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses  (Read 2536 times)

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Offline _Tak_

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Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« on: August 10, 2014, 11:13:05 am »
+4
-Note this is just a game balance idea based on my opinion-

70% of my deaths in battle is always caused by Cavs, the bump damages takes away a huge chunk of health and their horses never get damaged when bumping someone.

When a spear-user especially a pikeman managed to stab/ stop a horse. The rider will just run away because the spear didn't do enough damage unless there are other teammates around the pikeman.

a horse should die instantly when charged into a pike, even a rouncey can survived after being stabbed to the head by a spear.

All sorts of weapons with swings can do a OK amount of damage to the rider/horse when it hits them, but weapons such as longspear/pike they never seem to do enough damage vs Cav since you can't swing them. the idea is add bonus damage for longspears/ pikes so that everyone single cav will suffer a great consequence when charged into a pike.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 01:13:56 pm by AlexTheDragon »

Offline San

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2014, 02:14:07 am »
+2
I agree. Throwing lance as well. I think it might be possible to accomplish this through some workarounds without WSE, but I think it's a good idea.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2014, 03:20:51 am »
+3
It's kind of annoying how blocks look like magical forcefields, especially vs riders. Nobody should be able to block attacks on their mount's feet unless they're riding something appropriately tiny like a donkey.

Fairly easy to do bonus damage vs horses/people currently riding a horse, I think someone already posted sample code in another thread. (Tydeus?)

Only tricky bit is dealing extra damage to someone who was just dehorsed by that same stab unless you get the dehorsed guy's animation, but being vulnerable from the dismount is probably enough anyway, so just extra damage on the horse seems like enough.

The basic logic is below, haven't touched the module system in a long time, so please excuse any bad formatting.

Code: (pseudocode only for dealing extra damage to horses with riders, does not increase damage on rider) [Select]
# Trigger Param 1: receiver agent no
# Trigger Param 2: dealer agent no
# Trigger Param 3: inflicted damage
# Trigger Param 6: item kind no
# Trigger Param 8: missile item kind no
# Trigger Result: if set, damage dealt to agent

ti_on_agent_hit

(try_begin),


          (agent_get_troop_id, :agent_troop_no, param1),
          (eq, :agent_troop_no, -1), #Horses have a troopid of -1
          (assign, :should_multiply, 0), #using this to determine if/which multiplier should be used.


          (try_begin), #begin try block for pike/long spear
                    (gt, param6, 0),
                    (this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of -3 pike)), # An alternative for pike and long spear is check for length of 245 length or greater with the WSE               item_get_weapon_length operation, since nothing is as long or longer than long spear besides the pike.
                     ....
                    (this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of +3 pike)),
                    (this_or_next_eq, param6, (itemkinds number of -3 long spear)),
                    ...
                    (eq, param6, (itemkinds number of +3 long spear)),
                    (assign, :should_multiply, 1)


          (else_try), #begin try for throwing lance
                    (gt, param8, 0),
                    (this_or_next_eq, param8, (itemkinds number of -3 throwing lance in throwing mode)), #An alternative these throwing lance checks is check if WSE operation item_get_weapon_length returns 120 on param8, since there are no other missiles that are 120 length.
                    ...
                    (eq, param8, (itemkinds number of +3 throwing lance in throwing mode)),
                    (assign, :should_multiply, 2),
          (try_end),

          (gt, :should_multiply, 0),


          (try_begin),
                    (eq, :should_multiply, 1),
                    #do some math on the trigger result based on whatever formula is determined for long spear/pike
          (else_try),
                    (eq, :should_multiply, 2),
                    #do some math on the trigger result based on whatever formula is determined for throwing lance
          (try_end),
(try_end),


Offline San

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 04:22:30 am »
+2
Yeah, checking for length was what was discussed. Very nice.

Offline Taser

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 04:23:41 am »
+2
Yeah, checking for length was what was discussed. Very nice.

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Offline San

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2014, 05:07:37 am »
+1
Now, I would assume you can declare your own bonus against horses modifier, but I haven't exactly done that. I've also no idea if that would be the type of thing that would cause problems with chadz's compiler, assuming it would work.

At the very least, we can probably use the weapon length stat, in conjunction with the item type on the check, to be able to give those items additional damage.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2014, 06:53:51 am »
0
Heh, wasn't expecting you guys to use the same kludgy logic.

I also thought about using specific abundance values for special item behavior, since cRPG doesn't have a single player mode.

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2014, 07:14:10 am »
0
I say no, this game shouldn't be about X countering Y, it should be based on the skills of the player and cooperation of the team. Pikes and long spears are already very effective at rearing horses albeit at fairly low damage. Also literally any spearlike weapon should be able to kill a horse riding at full gallop, it isn't specific to the pike simply for being longer.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2014, 07:39:14 am »
+1
Well, I agree that a solid stab from any spear-like weapon (or heck, any sturdy pointy weapon) should do massive damage to cavalry, but at the moment it doesn't really function like that. Long spear/pike perform particularly badly since they only have a stab, and their length usually requires some exaggerated, easily down-blockable wobbling to do damage vs armored cavalry.

I see this idea as more of a slight correction for that since bracing polearms isn't a mechanic, I wouldn't expect the horses to explode like they do with spikes, just a bit more appropriate damage than the usual glances. The OP might have something different in mind though.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2014, 02:56:43 pm »
0
Nice idea. Could give a role to 2d and 1d polearms without making them any stronger against infantry. Should definitely include the English Bill at least
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:02:36 pm by Grumbs »
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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2014, 03:12:32 pm »
0
Nice idea. Could give a role to 2d and 1d polearms without making them any stronger against infantry. Should definitely include the English Bill at least

This. I hardly never see any pike or long spears in EU anymore.
This would be a good way of making them useful without being a pain in the ass (e.g. lolstabbing around walls, friends, etc.)

Also since Tydeus added the extra length to the thrusting ready animation (in patch 0.3.2.1) it has been a lot harder to rear horses with polearms because you simple cannot stab before you are run down and bumped.

Giving long polearms (or just pikes and long spears) a buff as anti-cav weapons would actually serve as a justifiable in relation to the above often forgotten nerf

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 03:19:01 pm »
0
They do already. Speed bonus.
BTW can we make impossible to hide pikes in ground, walls, rocks, ghostly travelling through everything?
I know that 2hs and other poles do the same, but, wait, pikes and longspears are just too long to leave them alone.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:32:19 pm by Reinmar3 »

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2014, 03:56:14 pm »
+2
Item numbers aren't static in crpg. If a new item gets added, it throws others out of place. This is because a new module_items.py file is generated at patch time based on the google sheet we use where we have a specific sheet for each particular item type, as well as modifiers and additional penalties. Still, its pretty easy to make do with the weapon length and itp_type_thrown as checks and of course, making sure you're not giving the bonus to lancers. The only issue, is deciding what length should start getting the bonus. At the moment I'm thinking greaterthan 160 (I see no problem with the scythe, fauchard or long voulge getting the bonus, but I'm not sure the glaive should.) Unfortunately this length would keep the War Spear and other short spears from receiving the bonus.

Edit: Pretty easy to script, just needs tested. ATM I have all throwing to receive a 20% damage bonus against horses.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 04:04:55 pm by Tydeus »
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 05:01:48 pm »
0
No way to code it for hoplites as well then? I think it will be a good update, but Ashwood pike would be undoubtedly the best hoplite weapon then
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Re: Pikes/Longspears should do double damage to horses
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 05:09:56 pm »
+3
No way to code it for hoplites as well then? I think it will be a good update, but Ashwood pike would be undoubtedly the best hoplite weapon then
Could check the user's animation, but then if you weren't using the shorter polearm in hoplite mode you would no longer get the bonus, not that this is necessarily a bad thing.
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