Author Topic: Battle map rotation overhaul  (Read 8053 times)

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Offline Prpavi

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2014, 11:35:34 am »
0
remove Screaming trees

reason: play it once, quite obvious
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2014, 12:12:18 pm »
+7
Okay, I worked through the thread mostly, but not entirely. Removed posts that didn't contain concrete suggestions. Nothing personal, but I'm not looking for vague hints, try to translate your throughts into concrete feedback. Added changes:
- Remove Barriye
- Remove Pueblo Village
- Adjust Horseshoe
- Adjust Maaseutu 2
- Adjust River Village

Still gotta work through Nordwolf's suggestion and I am hesitant to do anything about Rivendell as I only played it once.

Down by the River:
Due to some comments pointing the other way, I am not sure if I want to remove Down by the River. I asked once on the server if people wanted this map in the rotation y or n, and I got a few n's. I personally think it's quite an alright map, good looker too. Can anyone who hates it try to explain why?

Screaming Trees:
I personally think this map plays well, both as cav and infantry, can't say anything about ranged. It does require sick awareness to survive with all the visual clutter.  I removed a bunch of vegetation and moved most of the rest either towards the inner circle of stones or away from it. So there is quite a clear channel around the center, with more cover in the center and the outskirts. I enlarged the rocks and bushes in the center to make sure it breaks the line of sight and provides some cover to prevent accross the map headshots. I think if cav, ranged and infantry pick their approach and positioning in a smart way, every class should be viable.

(click to show/hide)

Trouble in the Neighbourhood
I removed all the walls so it is now a very open map, with more playtime in the center area hopefully and less circling. Perhaps it is too open now. Perhaps I should do a version with about half the walls removed with more open spaces, tell me what you think.

(click to show/hide)



Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
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Hun in the Sun
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Covered Crossing
(click to show/hide)

Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)

Domremy
(click to show/hide)

Two Rivers
(click to show/hide)

Tumulus
(click to show/hide)

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:39:00 pm by Teeth »

Offline Teeth

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2014, 12:19:00 pm »
0
Keep the feedback and suggestions coming please.

A comeback of some of the 2010/11 maps would be nice...
I don't know names and describing would take up too much space and time but I'm sure you remember some of them.
They don't have to be really well made or anything, I'm sure nostalgia will work its magic anywa. :D
No I don't really, and maps usually get removed for a reason. Exceptions are village maps which have been violently and indiscriminately purged in 2011 because they made up 80% of the map rotation. Finding old maps  is as easy for you as it is for me, except that you don't have to check them, fix them and implement them. Sort the Scene Editing board threads by views and you should see many threads of big mappers or map collections, look through them and find me maps. Go to the Taleworlds mapmaking boards and find me maps. Go through the villages using the Strategus fief list and find me those few precious villages that you thought were great, I don't want the okay ones. We currently have about 8 villages thanks to Gnjus pointing a few out to me in the past, but there is room for more. Look through old screenshots and videos, if you find me a decent shot of an old map I might very well remember the name or where to find it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:24:46 pm by Teeth »

Offline Moncho

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2014, 01:07:09 pm »
+1
About old maps (my personal opinion):
As you mentioned, Peipus became a "rush the tower", same as that village map in which the mid high wooden tower was closed for exactly that reason.
I never liked Hun in the Sun, it was heaven for ranged around the stump area shooting down at the infantry huddling behind the huts.
Crossing I like. Nice clusterfuck at the upper bridge.
Celtic ruins had too many stairs to mini ruins, without them I would like it better, but it's a quite good map.
Domremy I loved. Not sure why it was removed.
Two rivers has a problem in that it is one way only, maybe a ford on the far end of the rivers could help with that.
Tumulus... meh. Personally didn't like the camp for a few minutes then charge the middle ruins dynamic it often was.
The last one I loved. I think it was Disembark or Landing or something like that. Nice hilly terrain, with sea team rushing left dunes and land team rushing the other dunes it was quite good.

About others:
I don't really like down by the river because of the difference in height, the lower team is always going uphill, and the forest + hills makes it quite easy to get lost. Last players alive tend to take a while to find because of this. But I would not remove it from the rotation.
Screaming trees: Please don't remove it, maybe changing the trees a bit is good, but I really like that one as a different type of map.

About Nordwolf's:
Tavern was a bit too small, better for EU4, but not sure it is big enough for EU1. Same with Homestead (second of Jarold's maps)
Peaceful mountains seems to have too many hill camping spots.
Grand arena seems a "rush the wall" map.
Attack on a caravan and Faubourgh I liked, not sure if it is in rotation now.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 01:13:55 pm by Moncho »

Offline Nordwolf

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2014, 04:46:07 pm »
0
>Moncho - I didn't post grand Arena, it's just there with another map I posted.
 Peacefull mountains - I thought the large hills are all unreachable, aren't they?
I like attack on caravan, it's not in rotation though. Fauborg I like too, and it's in rotation.

> Teeth

+++ {Peipus lake, Covered Crossing, Domremy, The last one}

Hun in The sun - I remember it was a very unbalanced map for infantry, those houses serve 0 purpose as defense from cavalry or archers. There are absolutely no obstacles like fences, shields, woodstacks etc. They are just a small maze (also because they look all the same) and everyone who is inside is easily manipulated by those outside.

Citadel ruins - personally I never really liked it because it doesn't have a good flow to it, but otherwise I see nothing wrong with adding it back.

Tumulus - I like the looks of it, though it may be a bit unfair towards infantry, I like it because of those awesome infantry charges when one team decides to go. And unlike most one camp charge another camp maps the defending side doesn't win most of the time.

Trouble in the neighbourhood - I like how it looks without walls. I don't think it's too open, trees provide decent coverade and I think blobs will still go along those, it's just that they'll see another team much better.

Screaming trees - changes sound nice, I guess we'll need to see how it works in battle now :)

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2014, 10:03:22 pm »
-1
Remove Bounty: It has terrible class balance. It's really just a valley, which should be obvious to anyone, that it's terrible for melee. Ranged get fairly advantageous spots to shoot from, cav don't really have to worry about anything at all, most of the terrain is flat, and there is very little (if any) debris they need to steer away from. So what you have, is a map that funnels melee into one spot to get eaten alive by both ranged and cav. This is the exact opposite of what we want.

It's best to balance through maps, than items or builds, if possible.
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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2014, 12:11:47 am »
0
i updated that map and moved the spawns... waiting for the patch, if it still doesnt play well remove it

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2014, 01:24:48 am »
+1
Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
(click to show/hide)

This map tended to have a few different ways for people to play it and didn't seem too bad. I'd like to play it again to see what I think now

Hun in the Sun
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I never liked this map - it seemed like there was no real tactics to how you fight on it, just ranged camp on the roofs and everyone else does some deathmatch

Covered Crossing
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This was fun sometimes, but it had too many good sniping spots for ranged. I would rather not have this in rotation

Citadel Ruins
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Lots of good memories from this map. Would like to see it back in rotation and see how people play it now. Both sides are viable imo. One spawns higher but the other has the big tower to shoot from

Domremy
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I liked playing this map. One sides ruins is a bit too dense and easily defended though. I think it needs some editing so its better balanced

Two Rivers
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This was quite fun, but it could do with some editing to tighten it up a bit. Some pointless areas but has quite an interesting design imo with people fighting around the tower in the middle

Tumulus
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Don't really like this map. If its an open map like that you shouldn't have such a big incentive to camp near the start. Less cover and people will push forward and fight. As it is its a bit too boring with little incentive to push to the other side

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)

I like this map. Decent options for teams without too much emphasis on camping or pushing. Not great but certainly playable



My comments in bold
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Offline Nordwolf

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2014, 01:35:41 am »
+1
Remove Bounty: It has terrible class balance. It's really just a valley, which should be obvious to anyone, that it's terrible for melee. Ranged get fairly advantageous spots to shoot from, cav don't really have to worry about anything at all, most of the terrain is flat, and there is very little (if any) debris they need to steer away from. So what you have, is a map that funnels melee into one spot to get eaten alive by both ranged and cav. This is the exact opposite of what we want.

It's best to balance through maps, than items or builds, if possible.
i updated that map and moved the spawns... waiting for the patch, if it still doesnt play well remove it
This is one of my favourite maps, as any class. I don't see why you would need to remove or edit it.

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 04:16:58 am »
0
Looked at your maps that are up for discussion as additions. I'd like to see the following added:

Reveran Village: good to have a new town map, keep it fresh
Sandi Boush:  Looks like a lot of fun. We could use a few more tiny maps like this
Native - Village: I know it's super easy to camp but I love this map even if it isn't balanced well. It's just fun.
Maaseutu 2 : this is the forest map that I got added way back when! Closer spawns is a good idea, it's a very large map even with closer spawns
River Village: with tower!!! GOD YES PLEASE! Are you going to re-include the barn and garden gates too?

If Sandi Boush gets in, I'd also like to see the ATS map Street Revolt added. Similar idea, different map flavor. It's a lot of fun.
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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 08:55:27 am »
+1
I like what I see so far. The change to Trouble in the Neighbourhood is definitely interesting and we'll have to see how it turns out in practice. For Trouble in the Neighbourhood, is it possible to move the flag location outside of the water? That would make the map much more enjoyable during the latter parts of the round.

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2014, 01:04:26 pm »
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I honestly think most of the defend the viscount maps are pretty good for battles. Have you consider adding them to battle mode? some of them are pretty nice for PVP not just for bots. village maps are great, they provides good cover for ranged, better team strategy and tactics.

what i would like to see if more maps for all classes, instead of maps which is only limited to 1 or 2 classes. All classes friendly maps whatever you called them.

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2014, 05:15:16 pm »
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Also of note, Bounty only has 1 functional MotF spawn location and it's in the water closest to team 1's spawn. That alone should get it removed until fixed.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 01:06:16 am »
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Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
(click to show/hide)
The concept is nice, but I don't like how it plays. The lake/pond needs to be smaller, the size tends to cause teams to either never touch the center, or to only utilize the center. It's incredibly hard(suicidal) to cross from one side to the other due to the size. Just add 5m-10m of additional trees to shrink the center area, then readd it.


Hun in the Sun
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At least throw some debris around the areas away from the huts.

Covered Crossing
(click to show/hide)
Pretty good map. It has issues when you get a full server playing due to the one small bottle neck.


Citadel Ruins
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Good map. Shouldn't have been removed.


Domremy
(click to show/hide)
Not bad, could use some debris strewn about though.


Two Rivers
(click to show/hide)
Neutral on this one.


Tumulus
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I never enjoyed this map, except for when I was playing cav or ranged. The hills are good for ranged and somewhat cav (there are no steep inclines), bad for melee, and the open terrain is good for cav, decent for ranged (LOS on everything), and bad for melee. Please do not add. Cav is strong enough on its own that it doesn't need maps catering to it.


Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)
Not bad, it favors ranged a bit too heavily for me though. Melee are sitting ducks when trying to climb up hills at archers, which happens all the time on this map. It wouldn't be so bad, except Warband has shitty movement mechanics, particularly when it comes to hills. The left side hill is far too effective of a position for ranged. It's the tallest, widest and steepest hill in the whole map, and if this wasn't bad enough, only one team really has access to it.
Keep in mind, it's very likely that all of these maps will need to have their MotF locations looked at to make sure they don't spawn too close to one team. Even though we don't have MotF spawning immediately, it can still often spawn within the first minute of a round.
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Offline Tanken

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Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 01:23:37 am »
0
Add these back in.

Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)

Domremy
(click to show/hide)

Tumulus
(click to show/hide)

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)


PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HAVE ARENA BACK IN THE ROTATION!!!!!!!

Edit: Also, I've always said a lot of the Original Rageball maps would play amazingly in battle. Especially the one that had a lot of alternating buildings with archways and was set inside of what looked like an actual jousting arena.

Also, whatever happened to that old map which was a square village in the desert, with both teams having a way to go up some stairs and shoot down from their side, but the infantry having to go through 2 archways and meet in the middle, or off to the sides? It was very straight-forward.

Lately, I've been noticing smaller maps have generally been playing much better. It's the over-sized ones that make everyone bitch and moan, so focus on adding smaller stuff.

I would honestly remove almost every map right now from rotation and completely mix it up to give us a fresh-breath of air, but I know that won't happen and I know that's a big request.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 01:33:39 am by Tanken »
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