0.3.3.9.1

[Hirlok]

I don't understand what all this fuss is about archery. I have a dedicated archer and I am noticing nothing strange or gamebreaking.
Did I miss something or what's going on?

Archery was completely borked for a while, now after the hotfix it is more or less back to what it was before.

What is still slightly annoying: after the fix small bows are completely back to normal or even feel slightly buffed, big bows are slightly nerfed (draw speed worse, hold time). That inbalance has existed before and is worse now.

(I have currently a 12/27 pd4 archer with 195 wpf with mw nomad and a 18/24 pd6 archer with 184 wpf and mw longbow -  can't speak for higher pd builds)

[Oberyn]

The archery buff is a good one. (I am not ranged). they now have a better chance vs Cav which makes it more balanced.

the cRPG rage cycle is always on.

INF with no shield> QQ ranged
INF with shield> QQ Cav
Ranged> QQ Cav
Cav> QQ Ranged

You forgot one

Ranged cav = visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[tizzango]

This song goes out to all the QQ'ers.

[Templar_Steevee]

The archery buff is a good one. (I am not ranged). they now have a better chance vs Cav which makes it more balanced.

the cRPG rage cycle is always on.

INF with no shield> QQ ranged
INF with shield> QQ Cav
Ranged> QQ Cav
Cav> QQ Ranged

I have no reason to QQ, I just pew pew 

[San]

This is the old wpf difference from the previous PD level with the bug
6/36: -12 wpf from 3/39 to 6/36
9/33: -11 wpf from 6/36 to 9/33
12:30: -13
15/27: -12
18/24: -19.5
21/21: -38.9
24/18: -34.8
27/15: -28.5
30/12: -20.6

Without the bug:

6/36: -25.3
9/33: -23.9
12:30: -25.3
15/27: -23.5
18/24: -24.2
21/21: -22.3
24/18: -20.5
27/15: -17.1
30/12: -12.8

Because PD increases accuracy by a significant amount(I believe ~20wpf), the PD penalty is necessary. In the bugged version, there is a large decrease in wpf from 18/24 to 21/21. Low PD builds could also wear heavy armor and not incur any penalty at all. Simply removing the exponent skews builds towards strength and noticeably hurts the low PD builds. The formula needed to be changed so that low PD builds receive a small penalty while the wpf difference consistently remains above 20 for the rest of the builds. Unfortunately, another mistake was made along the way that needed to be fixed 

Currently:

6/36: -12
9/33: -17.5
12:30: -26.1
15/27: -24.8
18/24: -26.4
21/21: -25.9
24/18: -26.1
27/15: -26.8

This means that archery is less biased towards 18/XX builds.

Bows' accuracies then had to be manually adjusted. If a bow feels off compared to other bows, you should probably PM Tydeus or make a thread in game balance discussion. The biggest issue would be if a bow needs an accuracy increase/decrease somewhere between 0 and 1.

[Templar_Steevee]

(click to show/hide)

This is the old wpf difference from the previous PD level with the bug
6/36: -12 wpf from 3/39 to 6/36
9/33: -11 wpf from 6/36 to 9/33
12:30: -13
15/27: -12
18/24: -19.5
21/21: -38.9
24/18: -34.8
27/15: -28.5
30/12: -20.6

Without the bug:

6/36: -25.3
9/33: -23.9
12:30: -25.3
15/27: -23.5
18/24: -24.2
21/21: -22.3
24/18: -20.5
27/15: -17.1
30/12: -12.8

Because PD increases accuracy by a significant amount(I believe ~20wpf), the PD penalty is necessary. In the bugged version, there is a large decrease in wpf from 18/24 to 21/21. Low PD builds could also wear heavy armor and not incur any penalty at all. Simply removing the exponent skews builds towards strength and noticeably hurts the low PD builds. The formula needed to be changed so that low PD builds receive a small penalty while the wpf difference consistently remains above 20 for the rest of the builds. Unfortunately, another mistake was made along the way that needed to be fixed 

Currently:

6/36: -12
9/33: -17.5
12:30: -26.1
15/27: -24.8
18/24: -26.4
21/21: -25.9
24/18: -26.1
27/15: -26.8

This means that archery is less biased towards 18/XX builds.

Bows' accuracies then had to be manually adjusted. If a bow feels off compared to other bows, you should probably PM Tydeus or make a thread in game balance discussion. The biggest issue would be if a bow needs an accuracy increase/decrease somewhere between 0 and 1.

San, can you tell me  about my sqiuzed 18/27? it will be -26.4?

[San]

-24 compared to 15/27, +25.9 compared to 21/24, and of course +14 compared to 18/24.

As far as pure accuracy goes, the difference is actually quite small, but the other factors from wpf make a large difference when comparing the builds.

[Killer]

The archery buff is a good one. (I am not ranged). they now have a better chance vs Cav which makes it more balanced.

the cRPG rage cycle is always on.

INF with no shield> QQ ranged
INF with shield> QQ Cav
Ranged> QQ Cav
Cav> QQ Ranged

You also forgot Hoplite> QQ INF

[Prinz_Karl]

I feel like a broken record.

Can somebody make a real, logical, argument for having no free re-specs after a major change in class mechanics?  All I have ever seen on this forum is, "because I hate them, feel the pain bitches."   

This patch it is about Archers, and though I understand you are fixing a few major WPF bugs and re-adjusting weapons to match old performance, I still do not see why you don't give re-specs. 

The currency here is Time, and it is a comparative economy.  There is no scarcity, so all value is derived from the use of your Time (looms, ultra-levels), compared against your opponents.  And note that Value is only somewhat based on Time anyway: Numbers of Looms on a lvl 34 2her means nothing against a merely competent level 28 HX.

Under normal circumstances, if you decide you want to change your class, you must spend your Time and suffer some loss of value against a dedicated player who did not.  But when a patch makes mechanic changes, bug fixes or not, some players will experience a loss of Value/Time while un-changed players don't.  And if the classes that got changed are given a re-spec, that doesn't lower the Value of the un-changed classes.  It doesn't take your Time away, and it doesn't make his more valuable.  It is re-adjusting his for the change in gameplay.

I'm not quite sure what "item reimbursement" means (the monetary amount for a Bow? lol), and partial re-specs are not enough for everybody who plays the class.  There are, and should be SO MANY different ways to play CRPG.  If you want to be some bizzarro Archer/Thrower, go be thy bliss.

I guess what I am saying is: why does it matter to you if archers get a re-spec?  Why does it matter to the Game Devs?  The Time people invest in classes is just not worth anything to anybody beyond the Loom Market.  Unless you're an asshole who doesn't want every player to be as competitive.  At that point: go beat up on bots.

Maybe you should get a free respec, but you also should have noticed the broken build you had.

[Waylit]

I don't play Archer at all, its the one class I have never actually played, heh.   I advocate for free re-specs for every time a class gets a major change.

I don't care how much a class overpowers you personally, alone, running in the middle of a field with no shield. That shit is for duel servers.   The reality of this game is Teamplay Battles.  Live with it, and enjoy it more. 

I understand that basically archers had a bug giving them a whacked out incentive, and making them much more powerful as intended.  As a result most of them have wasted a lot of time thinking that was the way the mod wanted them to go.  I really don't expect you to gimp yourself because you feel your own class is "broken."  I expect melee to go flavor of the month because it is what the mod is telling them is better. 

San:  when you put the effects into a table like that, the bug just JUMPS out at you.  Is there a way to write a script that would allow you to identify the equations and a get Table of Values for each one?  That sounds easier to scan than where the brackets lie in 17000 lines. It may take time, but in my business a good amount of prep = a much smoother working result. 

[San]

The people that have the crpg and server files can just use debug statements to print out values for them. Looking at a piece of the code isn't that bad, but it definitely jumps around a lot.

[Templar_Steevee]

-24 compared to 15/27, +25.9 compared to 21/24, and of course +14 compared to 18/24.

As far as pure accuracy goes, the difference is actually quite small, but the other factors from wpf make a large difference when comparing the builds.

thx for fast respond

[Teeth]

Did something happen with archer damage relative to horses? My Destrier seems made of paper now.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

A rough calculation says 18/24s got at least a 6-10% damage increase vs +3 destriers depending on their armor layout with the patch, not counting leg/headshots, but increased accuracy seems like a far more likely explanation, unless someone messed with/accidentally rolled back soak/reduction/speed bonus.

Haven't noticed anything weird with the damage on NA though.

[San]

I noticed that my horse was taking more damage sometimes, but it might just be a few more strength or long bow archers on at that time.