The Jews are at it again..

[Osiris]

I totally didn't mention that in my posts

I cant blame Israel for expanding past their agreed borders because the Arab countries surrounding them kept attacking their right to a country. If the Arabs had accepted that a small Israel was ok then Palestine would probably still be ok.

I also said i understand both sides and favour neither but painting me as anti Israel without actually reading posts is easier i guess

For history, Israel has been attacked first, each and every time. And each and every time, they won. So yes, they are the real leaders of that piece of land. I honestly would also being biaised if i was on their shoes : X attacks you. You defeat them, but let them go, since ONU and shit. X + Y attacks you. You defeat them, but learned your lesson, so take some of their lands as payback. If X attacks you again, how would you react ?
I certainly admit that Israel is forcing things, by purposefully building colonies, and annexing territory that way. But that's nearly the only thing i can reproach them.

while true Israel was also formed largely due to terrorism by Jews. In this case everyone is an asshole Hamas are certainly going the wrong way about trying to get a proper state set up.

In my opinion the only way to try to get peace is for Israel to stop annexing more land and for Palestinians to reject the extremists. But while Israel build more settlements the extremists get more popular.

[Teeth]

With how this situation has escalated, i can only say i'm sorry for the "government" of Palestine, who decided to host the Hamas group in Gaza. They could themselves have labeled them as extremists, or terrorists.

You probably should have had your dad working in Gaza as well for a fair outlook on things. Hamas aren't extremists or terrorists at all to the Palestinians and for good reason. They are a broad organization of which the military wing is only one aspect. A military wing that resorts to suicide bombings and rocket barrages because they are the only somewhat effective tools they have access to against the high tech Israeli military. Give them tanks and jets and they would use those instead and look like a proper military. Hamas is responsible for most of the improvements in the living conditions of Palestinians. Building infrastructure, schools, improving healthcare and other social activities are a significant part of the reason why the Palestinians love them. Their leaders are not jihadists in balaclavas with AK-47's, but politicians in suits.

[Tovi]

Hamas aren't extremists or terrorists at all to the Palestinians and for good reason

because they kill jews...

[Xant]

well i guess 99.9% of the world is retarded and childish and you are one of the very few enlightened folk around xant.

Xant when you were in school if someone tried to bully you and take your things would you hand them over because fighting over possessions is childish?

Horrible analogy.

[Tibe]

Its kinda hard to root for palestinians imo. Simply cause they are muslim and muslims arent exactly known for their jewloving, compromises and tolerance. If by any chance they would one day beat Israel with the help of other arabstates they will most certainly massgenocide every israeli in their path. Man, woman or child cause they are seriuslly pissed off.

Tell me honestly would any of you see that palestinians would do better in this situation if they were the significantly superior force in the area? I dont. Im quite sure if palestine was put in israels shoes they would act even more horribly.

[Bulzur]

You probably should have had your dad working in Gaza as well for a fair outlook on things. Hamas aren't extremists or terrorists at all to the Palestinians and for good reason. They are a broad organization of which the military wing is only one aspect. A military wing that resorts to suicide bombings and rocket barrages because they are the only somewhat effective tools they have access to against the high tech Israeli military. Give them tanks and jets and they would use those instead and look like a proper military. Hamas is responsible for most of the improvements in the living conditions of Palestinians. Building infrastructure, schools, improving healthcare and other social activities are a significant part of the reason why the Palestinians love them. Their leaders are not jihadists in balaclavas with AK-47's, but politicians in suits.

Well, thanks for the enlightenement. That's one of the reasons i postedi n the first place, to get more information on this all.
But... i never heard of any military forces that uses suicide bombing and rocket barrages. Because they don't have a proper military, but still want to be a threat, they resort to terrorist-like attacks ? And... i don't see how suicide bombing is seen as anything else than terrorism, since it's not aimed solely at military opponents, but civilians.

If in the first place, if that military branch of Hamas didn't exist, how would things be ? Definitely they couldn't attack first, so Israel would never have responded to that. And the world community is more likely to help a country (even if not recognised by all) that doesn't have any military, than allow them to "defend" themselves by suicide bombing. I mean... wtf.
"Hey, we can't fight against your tanks, so we're gonna bomb your buses and commercial markets when you don't expect it." It's also the main point of the Hamas, killing all jews. Or is that just a political point of view nowadays...

So it IS Hamas fault for not disbanding their somewhat military extremist. Since it's those that are the main problem. No ? Or do they think they need to have this persuasive power (don't attack us or we'll suicide bomb) ?


Finally the Hamas itself, as much of a political party helping the Palestinian by building things and stuff, has in his ideology one simple sentence :" The land of Palestine is an islamic land". And they're in favor of the destruction of Israel, and that's why they don't want to recognize Israel as a country, and that's why Israel can't negociate any "2 official countries" there.

I'm sorry, but i really can't see them as victims. You reap what you sow.

[darmaster]

I hate israel (not jews)(kidding jews too ))) ) with all my heart but that's what happens when you launch 80 missles during truce and then hide your armies in civilian structures, that's lame and disgusting no matter who does it. still israel is a biatch.

[Angantyr]

The Hamas position on the two-state solution does not seem that clear-cut to me. I have read about denials of previous acceptations and about refusals to end the violence even if a two-state solution is reached. Their rhetoric has been ambigious and their desire for violence towards Israel seems to trump their desire for a solution at many a time. Just saying that it doesn't seem that clear to me that the two-state solution is held back only because of Israel.

Yes, the rhetoric is ambiguous (a good example http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/22/israel) and is for the sake of internal politics similar to much of Israel's most crazy and bloodthirsty rhetoric (see also through which media the opposing stances are communicated, western press are fed reconciliation while radical forces at home are fed defiance). But the diplomatic message is clear and otherwise a realpolitik imperative for an ant against an elephant. The Hamas leadership is not stupid nor suicidal, they recognize their situation.

There's a lot to consider for either nation to accept a two-state solution, so for Hamas to even insinuate it is a first step towards peace that Israel should try to emulate. Particularly when seen in the light that Palestine, when accepting Israel as a 'Jewish state' (as it is phrased in Israel's Basic Law), at the same time gives up on the 'right to return', and legitimizes Israel's 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and past and current aggression against the Palestinian people. Similarly, Israel would have to accept the 'right to return' of the Palestinians (which has never even been a topic for the Israeli government because it would confer democratic power to the arab minority), and also accept that Palestine, when accepted into the international community would be able to hold Israel accountable for its war crimes and 'crimes against humanity' under international law (even genocide according to the KLWCT).

A pretty good analysis: http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=296

" The land of Palestine is an islamic land". And they're in favor of the destruction of Israel, and that's why they don't want to recognize Israel as a country, and that's why Israel can't negociate any "2 official countries" there.

Please read above and please remember Israel has never acknowledged a Palestinian state in any way (in opposition to most of the international community), and also claims Israel is a 'Jewish state'. Closest was the Oslo Accords but the chief Israeli diplomat was murdered by Zionist terrorists before anything good came out of it. If Israel would agree to the terms from Oslo there would be a two-state solution, in agreement with the rest of the world. But Israeli leaders continue to refuse it.

Just looking at a map demonstrates to Palestinians and everyone else that Israel is not interested in a viable Palestinian state, the illegal settlements and land grabbing is legally an act of war in itself, and with the current development soon there will be nothing left to build a state on.

truce

armies

There was no truce as Israel has consistently been breaking it, by occupying the land against international law, daily breaches of the Geneve accord in the occupied territories and constantly expanding its illegal settlements on Palestinian land, forcibly expelling the inhabitants and taking the best land while dividing Palestine into completely seperated bantustans, surrounded by fortified Israeli settlements and military checkpoints and walls, leaving no hope for a contiguous Palestinian state.

Also, Palestine has no standing army, some factions have smaller militias and there's no central government or army command.

Only problem is that there never was a country called Palestine.  When Israel declared a state in 1948 and was attacked by 5 Arab armies, the Muslim religious leaders urged the Palestinians that were living in the area of the Jewish state to leave so that it would be easier to crush the new country.

Why haven't the Arabs and the Palestinians agreed to a two country solution for the last 64 years?  It's because they wish to see Israel destroyed and all the Jews along with it.

But was there a state called Israel before that, either? Also, as you comment it is sometimes claimed in Israeli propaganda that the Palestinians fled themselves and were not to terrorized to do so, but even Israeli academia do not try to deny that the Israelis ethnically cleansed the region and the evidence is simply overwhelming (even from the mouths of contemporary Israeli policy makers). There's plenty of Israeli massacres against Palestinians on record (also in Israeli archives) in 1948 (and since), I suggest you look them up. Most Palestinians were simply expelled but the massacres helped convince most who could to flee to seek safety for their families in neighbouring countries (who in general were not very welcoming). Those few that have stayed are mostly those with little ressources.

And to the last part yes, as I've written above, the argument that Palestine is blocking the two-state solution when Israel has exclaimed time and again there will be no Palestinian state, and that Israel will be a Jewish state, and has continuously blocked the two-state solution in the UN and elsewhere, is too flawed to reiterate. Take a look at the unequivocal diplomatic record, please.

[Oberyn]

Eh, "missiles". How many casualties have those massive barrages caused among the israelis? When you look at some of these famous palestinian rockets you notice they're more akin to what a retarded kid would put together for a science project than actual military hardware.
I frankly don't care either way, Israel hasn't been an ally of France since the Six Day War. I doubt Israel cares at all what us french think, and I'm not particularly fond of islamic fanatics either. It's clear both sides want to ethnically cleanse the other. Israel is just a lot smarter and more patient about it, playing the long game.

[Angantyr]

Western powers have a rich tradition of supporting radical islamism over radical nationalism, for a current example just look at Saudi Arabia. The gradual destruction of Palestine only leads to more Islamic fanatism, where cooperation and diplomacy would help progressive powers gain a foothold.

[Sniger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Empire_of_Their_Own

[SixThumbs]

From what I understand the "rocket" attacks are basically as Oberyn said, they kind of point fireworks in the general direction of Israel and light them.

But this is one of many world/foreign issues where people can ruminate on piecemeal information but meanwhile the peoples involved keep on living in seemingly inane situations.

[Angantyr]

nvm

[Turkhammer]

Heskey is Pro-Choice.

Let them choose guys, it's their decision.

And let them suffer the consequences of their choices.

[Turkhammer]

Western powers have a rich tradition of supporting radical islamism over radical nationalism, for a current example just look at Saudi Arabia. The gradual destruction of Palestine only leads to more Islamic fanatism, where cooperation and diplomacy would help progressive powers gain a foothold.

That is a tired old red herring.  Islamism doesn't care one iota about the Palestinians and neither does any Arab country.  I think they are happy to have them as a convenient excuse to attack Israel.  In their heart of hearts they still long for the destruction of Israel and even a two state solution will not end that or bring peace to Israel and it's neighbors.