Iraq falling appart

[Kafein]

rational

What definition are you using? Because in mine, "human progress" does not appear.

If that wasn't evident already, I consider Enlightenment values to be vastly better than anything the competition has to offer. That said, whatever happens to the world after I'm gone will not affect me, at all. This is merely a logical corollary of me not believing in any form of afterlife. Something I think many of you share with me.

Now there's a huge difference between intellectually acknowledging that as truth and actually living by it as a moral principle. It's a bit like the Talos principle. I can have any kind of wild philosophical theory about the world (and in this case, a grounded one), I'm still a big chimp that likes to eat and fuck. It would take an exceptional effort of willpower to go against millions of years of evolutionary conditioning, and at the end I don't think there would be any actual reward for doing so.

fraternize with the big O

You're literally Oberyn plus a constant.

[Turkhammer]

Shitty logic, accounting for no variables and failed extrapolation can prove any flawed point you want.

.
What happened to the charming example you had about proving that you would never die by plotting a point on a chart each day that you were alive?  You shouldn't have taken that out.  By that logic we don't have to worry about global warming.

Kafein:

Rational, (logical, reasoned, judicious, shrewd, intelligent, sensible, cogent) as in if you wish to effect an outcome you take appropriate steps to foster that outcome and resist steps that are counter to that outcome.  It is immaterial whether the outcome affects you personally or not if your objective is to ensure Enlightenment values persist.  You asked for a rationale of why you should care if Sharia law was imposed after your death, there it is.  The preservation of a better system and better values than the alternative.  Who says you can't leave a legacy for the future, even if you don't have children?

[Kafein]

Rational, (logical, reasoned, judicious, shrewd, intelligent, sensible, cogent) as in if you wish to effect an outcome you take appropriate steps to foster that outcome and resist steps that are counter to that outcome.  It is immaterial whether the outcome affects you personally or not if your objective is to ensure Enlightenment values persist.  You asked for a rationale of why you should care if Sharia law was imposed after your death, there it is.  The preservation of a better system and better values than the alternative.  Who says you can't leave a legacy for the future, even if you don't have children?

Isn't the rationale of every living being to maximize happiness?

[Xant]

Rational, (logical, reasoned, judicious, shrewd, intelligent, sensible, cogent) as in if you wish to effect an outcome you take appropriate steps to foster that outcome and resist steps that are counter to that outcome.  It is immaterial whether the outcome affects you personally or not if your objective is to ensure Enlightenment values persist.  You asked for a rationale of why you should care if Sharia law was imposed after your death, there it is.  The preservation of a better system and better values than the alternative.  Who says you can't leave a legacy for the future, even if you don't have children?

No one says or said you can't. What Kafein has asked is why should he care. You, and Oberyn, are begging the question. You're working under the assumption that X is desirable and superior without explaining why, when the whole point Kafein (and I) is making is that X is meaningless after death. So your argument looks something like this: "You don't care about X? You say it doesn't matter? If everyone thought like that, X would be destroyed! X would be gone! If you did Y, then X would survive, even if you had no children!" It's a big string of "yes, and?'s" for someone arguing Kafein's position.

Even if Kafein believes Enlightenment values are the best thing since sliced bread, that only matters while he's alive. What happens to Enlightenment values has no effect on him after he dies. He won't even know whether they're successful or not. Human progression, likewise. It's just mental masturbation in the present day, it'll mean nothing after you die, and frankly, it looks like flailing against the inevitable: that you'll be gone. So you try to come up with a continuity that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, "oh, I may die, but the Human Race moves on ever so gloriously!" That's exactly the same as religion, a blanket to hide under so you won't have to come to terms with the absurd meaninglessness of it all and the fact you'll be DEAD, gone from the Universe, not asleep, not watching from afar with pride, but NON-EXISTENT. Your ideas will be dead, your thoughts will be dead, your ideals will be dead. It doesn't matter one iota to the dead "you" what happens after the event. There won't be a "you" to care.

[Jambi]

gone from the Universe, not asleep, not watching from afar with pride, but NON-EXISTENT. Your ideas will be dead, your thoughts will be dead, your ideals will be dead. It doesn't matter one iota to the dead "you" what happens after the event. There won't be a "you" to care.

Jambi Xant change your profile pic to this

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Silly proles, and their silly ideas and discussions. Too much tax spend on trivial means.
This thread is filled with plebs, that have no chance of adapting to this New World.
There is no other reason, but tempered-reason. Submit now without physical or verbal aggression!
The only way to show your pride, is by admitting your defeat!
Let these be  guidestones to an age of reason.
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[Leshma]

Isn't the rationale of every living being to maximize happiness?

Don't think so, otherwise we would all be heroin addicts by now.

[Jambi]

Don't think so, otherwise we would all be heroin addicts by now.

 

[Armpit_Sweat]

Don't think so, otherwise we would all be heroin addicts by now.

that would be so awesome! Just chilling in a Matrix-like tube, filled with heroine goo, while machines are automatically maintaining the hardware. A perpetual state of an awe inspiring joy - no worries, no sense of time or mortality, no doubts, no suffering, etc.

unfortunately, we haven't reached the technological level capable of such a miracle...
what a bliss it would be!

Hardly achievable in practice in any case, due to a simple fact that most people desire to compete, and rather suffer, as long as one suffers less than others. In other words, a total equality of a wonderful heroine-goo would be simply unacceptable for many, as it deprives them of a possibility to dominate.

[Xant]

Don't think so, otherwise we would all be heroin addicts by now.

Being a heroin addict isn't most people's definition of happiness, Leshma.

[Algarn]

that would be so awesome! Just chilling in a Matrix-like tube, filled with heroine goo, while machines are automatically maintaining the hardware. A perpetual state of an awe inspiring joy - no worries, no sense of time or mortality, no doubts, no suffering, etc.

unfortunately, we haven't reached the technological level capable of such a miracle...
what a bliss it would be!

Hardly achievable in practice in any case, due to a simple fact that most people desire to compete, and rather suffer, as long as one suffers less than others. In other words, a total equality of a wonderful heroine-goo would be simply unacceptable for many, as it deprives them of a possibility to dominate.

People tend to suffer to live with rewards they don't deserve. If you ask people if they want to do such a thing, they'll say no, because besides the fact it's weird as hell, it destroys you : if you're a man who's being injected drugs just for continuous pleasure, while sustaining to your basic needs, you're not worth more than a corpse, since you'll have the stunned mind of a larvae because of the drugs, not being able to reflect about anything, even yourself. I'd rather prefer an honorable and decent/quick way to die, rather than live the rest of my life like less than an animal.

[Murmillus_Prime]

No one says or said you can't. What Kafein has asked is why should he care. You, and Oberyn, are begging the question. You're working under the assumption that X is desirable and superior without explaining why, when the whole point Kafein (and I) is making is that X is meaningless after death. So your argument looks something like this: "You don't care about X? You say it doesn't matter? If everyone thought like that, X would be destroyed! X would be gone! If you did Y, then X would survive, even if you had no children!" It's a big string of "yes, and?'s" for someone arguing Kafein's position.

Even if Kafein believes Enlightenment values are the best thing since sliced bread, that only matters while he's alive. What happens to Enlightenment values has no effect on him after he dies. He won't even know whether they're successful or not. Human progression, likewise. It's just mental masturbation in the present day, it'll mean nothing after you die, and frankly, it looks like flailing against the inevitable: that you'll be gone. So you try to come up with a continuity that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, "oh, I may die, but the Human Race moves on ever so gloriously!" That's exactly the same as religion, a blanket to hide under so you won't have to come to terms with the absurd meaninglessness of it all and the fact you'll be DEAD, gone from the Universe, not asleep, not watching from afar with pride, but NON-EXISTENT. Your ideas will be dead, your thoughts will be dead, your ideals will be dead. It doesn't matter one iota to the dead "you" what happens after the event. There won't be a "you" to care.

You seem to know alot about what happens after death, are you dead?

I'd argue the desire to ensure the human race progresses after death on what some would consider a path of "englightenment" is connected to and derived from the more primal desire to ensure the survival of our species through recreation and survival instincts.

If there's no point considering existence after death because you believe it doesn't affect you after you die then why exist at all? Are you now going to fall back on the excuse that the primal instinct to survive and reproduce justifies your existence without acknowledging my first points? Or perhaps you simply fear of death? Or are you going to come back stating how much enjoyment you derive from your existence, even if that enjoyment is partially derived from the primal instinct and desire to procreate? If so then this rationale could at least on the very basic level be construed by some that you do infact care what happens after death because you desire to procreate and ensure the survival of the species at the very minimum on the lizard brain level of consciousness and not the consciousness you'd associate with your ego that you consider to be you.

This goes for anyone arguing similar points, Kafein for example.

What definition are you using? Because in mine, "human progress" does not appear.

If that wasn't evident already, I consider Enlightenment values to be vastly better than anything the competition has to offer. That said, whatever happens to the world after I'm gone will not affect me, at all. This is merely a logical corollary of me not believing in any form of afterlife. Something I think many of you share with me.

Now there's a huge difference between intellectually acknowledging that as truth and actually living by it as a moral principle. It's a bit like the Talos principle. I can have any kind of wild philosophical theory about the world (and in this case, a grounded one), I'm still a big chimp that likes to eat and fuck. It would take an exceptional effort of willpower to go against millions of years of evolutionary conditioning, and at the end I don't think there would be any actual reward for doing so.

You're literally Oberyn plus a constant.

Isn't the rationale of every living being to maximize happiness?

/thread

[Armpit_Sweat]

Being a heroin addict isn't most people's definition of happiness, Leshma.

Xant, give us your definition of happiness. It can't be the generic smile of a child, a loving embrace of a female, rainbows with other natural nonsense, on top of world's peace... I am genuinely curious.

I'll go with heroine-goo in a heartbeat.

People tend to suffer to live with rewards they don't deserve

This part i don't understand..

... because besides the fact it's weird as hell, it destroys you : if you're a man who's being injected drugs just for continuous pleasure, while sustaining to your basic needs, you're not worth more than a corpse, since you'll have the stunned mind of a larvae because of the drugs, not being able to reflect about anything, even yourself.

It's relative. Having a "mind of a larvae" vs being a sort of a god-like intellectual being has nothing to do with happiness. As to destroying the body - let's just, for the sake of an argument, replace heroine with an equally pleasurable brain stimulation, that just makes you feel as good or better. It's not the point.

I'd rather prefer an honorable and decent/quick way to die, rather than live the rest of my life like less than an animal.

Me, you, and everyone else is an animal as far as i am concerned. Terms such as "honor" etc., are so virtual and relative, that I see no sense in discussing them in this particular case F.ex.: those ISIS apes prefer to honorably blow themselves up in a crowd of people, and mine or your's opinion about it mean less than nothing to them.

EDIT:

btw guys, don't get mad, i am just in a mood to argue a little. let's keep it rollin'

[Algarn]

Xant, give us your definition of happiness. It can't be the generic smile of a child, a loving embrace of a female, rainbows with other natural nonsense, on top of world's peace... I am genuinely curious.

I'll go with heroine-goo in a heartbeat.

This part i don't understand..

People who don't work for their rewards, tend to normally find themselves sad, or disappointed of their life at some point, since they don't deserve that reward. When you get something, while you know you did literally nothing to deserve it, not only alters its taste, but also makes you feel some kind of weird sensation/feeling after that, like mediocrity, or shame.

It's relative. Having a "mind of a larvae" vs being a sort of a god-like intellectual being has nothing to do with happiness. As to destroying the body - let's just, for the sake of an argument, replace heroine with an equally pleasurable brain stimulation, that just makes you feel as good or better. It's not the point.

Well, the point of drugs, is literally to get ourselves filled with endorphins and dopamine, which leads to the same thing : you're being completely stunned, permanently in this case. This is what I actually thought of : if you're given rewards, without any work, you don't learn, you don't progress, you don't reflect. This means your brain is slowly, but surely rotting away. Stunning it completely with drugs just accelerate the things.

Me, you, and everyone else is an animal as far as i am concerned. Terms such as "honor" etc., are so virtual and relative, that I see no sense in discussing them in this particular case F.ex.: those ISIS apes prefer to honorably blow themselves up in a crowd of people, and mine or your's opinion about it mean less than nothing to them.

When I say I want an honorable death, or anything similar compared to living like this, I mean I would actually wish for people I like to get a last sight of me, dying for a right cause, in a way I wished, rather than living like that, and not even realizing I'm about to die or whatever. Nothing will matter anymore once you die, as Kafein explained quite well, but I actually wish something good remains of my short existence on this fucked up planet, even if it'll last shortly.

EDIT:

btw guys, don't get mad, i am just in a mood to argue a little. let's keep it rollin'


Not writing with any anger nor any feeling in fact, I keep those for when I keep dying because of lag and stuff. Serious business, y'know... 

Learning stuff also comes with confrontation of ideas (as long as they're justified) and discussion. Hell,  if I didn't come on these forums years ago, I wouldn't even be able to write correctly a single sentence in English, but posters like Kafein, Molly, and some others gave me the keys to improve my english. I don't understand tho, why some people consider discussing on the internet as a competition, when everyone can gain something by actually learning something new, without any kind of hate tells, etc.

[Christo]

Don't think so, otherwise we would all be heroin addicts by now.

k
replace "happiness" with "well-being", then.

if you still thinkin' about heroin, i got bad news m8

[Xant]

You seem to know alot about what happens after death, are you dead?

It's called inductive reasoning. We know where thoughts are formed, and what they need to be formed, i.e., a working brain. There is no reason to assume death is anything but non-existence, and all the reasons to believe it is non-existence, based on everything science has told us so far.

I'd argue the desire to ensure the human race progresses after death on what some would consider a path of "englightenment" is connected to and derived from the more primal desire to ensure the survival of our species through recreation and survival instincts.

That's nice.

If there's no point considering existence after death because you believe it doesn't affect you after you die then why exist at all?

Because I like existing. What a hard question.

Are you now going to fall back on the excuse that the primal instinct to survive and reproduce justifies your existence without acknowledging my first points?

What are you even talking about?

Or are you going to come back stating how much enjoyment you derive from your existence, even if that enjoyment is partially derived from the primal instinct and desire to procreate?

I don't derive enjoyment from existence because of the "primal instinct and desire to procreate." Even if I did, there's a saying about bad masters and good servants.

If so then this rationale could at least on the very basic level be construed by some that you do infact care what happens after death because you desire to procreate and ensure the survival of the species

Yes, I'm sure an idiot could "construe" it to mean that, but that's why we'd call that person an idiot -- it makes no sense whatsoever. Enjoying life somehow turns into "desiring to procreate and ensure the survival of the species"? What? There's more to life than sex, you know, and even if sex were one of the main reasons for someone to be alive, that's still a non sequitur. If Bob enjoys sex because enjoying sex made his ancestors breed more, that doesn't mean Bob has the desire to procreate and ensure the survival of the species; it means Bob likes sex, which, in his ancestors, as a side effect led to those genes that make you enjoy sex being passed on.

Xant, give us your definition of happiness. It can't be the generic smile of a child, a loving embrace of a female, rainbows with other natural nonsense, on top of world's peace... I am genuinely curious.

Being able to do what I want to do. Mostly things that I find intellectually and physically pleasing, and those things include difficulties and struggle and competition, so I wouldn't want to be hooked to a heroin machine. The trick, I've found, is to pick and choose which one of your evolved instincts and traits you find acceptable and worthy on an intellectual level and then pursue things that align with them, while subduing the instincts and traits you dislike.