Current shielder meta

[Rico]

Hello all!

Before you read, please keep in mind that there is always counter-examples against caricatural examples. Just like we all know that GET A SHIELD LOL does not provide a 360° protection from arrows, my observations are certainly not the absolute truth, but I think I found a tendency I personally dislike. If I am just not skilled enough to play a shielder well, please excuse I have said anything. And as usual, I hope I am not making you bored or offended with this opening thread.

I am very happy about additional speed for many weapons. The greatswords and long polearms are viable alternatives to their more spammish familiars. The last patches were successful.

However, it turned out that one-handed players do no longer have any class-specific speed advantage at all. My favorite example is a Long War Axe vs. Round Steel Buckler fight. Please ignore that the Buckler would die in a few hits whatsoever, let's assume a shielder with 8 shield skill, a Round Steel Buckler +3 and a very short fight, which is exactly what happened to me several times:

- Shielder (S) holds block.
- Polearmer (P) holds sideswing.
- S has a plan to kill P: "I pretend to attack for a split second, but immediately right-click again. P will release the swing, I will block. It's my turn now, I can make one feint, hold my next swing and get a hit on P."
- S pretends to attack for a split second and immediately right-clicks, even before the character executes the attack animation on the screen with a ping of 25.
- P observes that the shield goes down for a split second and releases the swing.
- S's shield is not ready to block yet and the sideswing kills S.

Let me generalize this observation a bit! The result is certainly not always this extreme, comparing a relatively fast polearm with the fastest useable shield. But it is a tendency that shows:
Compared to the now faster polearm and twohand weapons, the time a shield needs to get ready to block after the shielder right-clicks is too high.

Viable shielder gameplay is now restricted to
- stabbing weapons like Espada, Side Sword and Spathion to have a fast attack and distance to the enemy
- Arabian Cavalry Sword when mounted for bumpslashes
- Steel Pick and Warhammer which have been the strongest onehanders ever since just because of their high damage in spite of heavy armor

In the current meta of fast polearmers and twohanders, all other weapons are only viable when one has the level advantage. A Niuweidao might stop glancing with 3 LVLs higher than the enemy, i.e. 1 PS or 1 WM more. A Winged Mace can be deadly when you are level 35 or 36. But when a shielder of level 30 fights against a polearmer or twohanded of level 30, and the shielder is not using one of the weapons listed above, all odds are against the shielder. At the same time, the polearmer or twohander can use any weapon apart from special-purposes stuff such as Pike, Long Maul or Flamberge. By the way, if the shielder knows how to block manually, his chances are better when he puts the shield on the back before the duel to block the enemy hits sufficiently fast.

Responsive footwork commands (S-key ), fast feints, instant blocks with any weapons but shields and unbalanced stuff, and the easy way you can turn the camera with your swing to hit faster or even hiltslash without glancing create a balance in strong favor of big weapons. This is not necessarily a bad thing in general, but I feel like shielder is very restricted in the choice of weapons and play style unless the character is some levels over 30, just like 1h+crossbow at level 30 or less became all about the Heavy Crossbow, rendering all other Crossbows useless or simply unusable.

This is why I suggest to make shields more responsive to the block command, at least some of them, such as the bucklers and maybe Elite Cavalry/Knightly Kite/Knightly Heater and the like. Perhaps other changes in the internal balance of one-handed weapons would also help.

Thank you for your time!

[jtobiasm]

Read the top half, but what most people forget is polearmers and 2hers are their to kill. Shielders are there to push the lines absorb damage and support the team.

If you're trying to duel as a shielder, you're doing sumat wrong.

[Gurnisson]

If you get hit while feinting, you're doing something wrong. I use slower shields than the buckler, and I haven't encountered what you're talking about. There's a lot more one-handers than you mentioned that are great, even at level 30 and below.

[Tomas_Miles_again]

Perhaps a wild shot in the dark here, but would it be possible to provide damage reduction from a hit to the shield bearing collision point via WSE2? This would simulate not bracing against an attack yet having a big piece of dampener in between you and the weapon, much like how shield on the back worked. If not cRPG, perhaps: Melee Battlegrounds.

Edit: my point is the penalty for releasing a block with a shield could be mitigated by giving the shield a bonus armour-like behaviour if the attack collides with it.

[Rico]

Read the top half, but what most people forget is polearmers and 2hers are their to kill. Shielders are there to push the lines absorb damage and support the team.

If you're trying to duel as a shielder, you're doing sumat wrong.

You have a point, but the truth is somewhere in between: If shielders were only a supporting class, they wouldn't really have to bring a weapon at all. But of course, they are no full dueling class either, because one handed weapons deal significantly lower damage than other weapons.

The council has to decide for the correct role for shielders. I think right now, if shielders as a hybrid between supporter and duelist reflect their approach, the shields should be made more responsive - otherwise, shielders are walking meat shields, not walking shields

[Radament]

shielders are supposed to stay in front line (happens only when they are obliged to form a shieldwall , if not , i alway see a lot of shielders in the rear group , or they stay away from the combat) , they are no duelists , wtf really? they are one of the most important classes to beat the evil archery.
Yes they are a support class and maybe they are not scoring enough to be the best top players but only pussies like to see themselves on the scoreboard (at least for me) and fapping at their K/D ratio.
This game is supposed to be  based on team-play , even a Phyrex alone in the battlefield could be slaughtered by an horde of newbies , a shielder have more chances to survive but their life won't last long if they play solo.

*yes shielders are meatshields atm with so much ranged and cavalry but that's not a balance problem that's a number problem.

[Kafein]

Lel, using a shield in a 1v1

[matt2507]

Read the top half, but what most people forget is polearmers and 2hers are their to kill. Shielders are there to push the lines absorb damage and support the team.

If you're trying to duel as a shielder, you're doing sumat wrong.

If Shielders played like you said, it would be most teamhited, they could not attack because pôle/2h glue them back and they would probably be the first to die because they have no support from pôles/2h behind.

Fortunately, Shielders do not play the way you want.

[Konrax]

I kind of see where you are coming from.

I have experienced this attempt to feint and get hit immediately after, however I use a heavy round shield MW, and have 7 shield skill.

So I should have a fast block response, but I honestly feel it's not enough in the last patch to effectively try to do feints against fast 2h/pole.

I expect that with 8wm, a 103 speed weapon, and 7 shield skill (pure 1h wpf) that I should be fast enough to at least get a chance to do a feint or two against fast 2h/pole enemies but that really isn't the case anymore.

[Tomas_Miles_again]

A shield needs more physical presence in the game.

[Gurnisson]

If you feel you can't use feints properly as a shielder, I'd advice you to spectate Nord_Sigrithr when he's on EU1/EU2.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

If your opponent is spamming too much for a feint (fake attack-block-attack) then it means that you should hold just a little longer your attack, and realese it when your opponent tries to attack you again (as he's a spamming bastard).

However as jtobiasm pointed out, shielders are not made for duel. I'll add that on the other hand, they are better better for ganking. see my previous point if you want:

(click to show/hide)

I don't think 1h should be compared to other weapons, they are not made for duel. They are like hoplite build, of course it's hard to duel with them but when it comes to ganking, they are just perfect. Or even in big messy melee, when 2h and polearm are blocked by someone too close (or usually a friendly shielder hiding behind your ass), the 1h is good.

If you really want to duel with a shielder build, wait for your opponent to break your shield, you'll be faster once it's done and you'll be able to duel correctly (even if you deal less damage).

[Tomas_Miles_again]

Or put the shield away preserving it for if you need it later.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

yeah but if you put it in your back, even if your feint will be faster than with your shield in your hand, it will still be a dead weight and will slow you down.

You must really throw it away.

[Admiral Ballsack]

I think the real issue is that half of the shields/one-hands aren't used/useless.. Maybe you just aren't used to playing shielder, because I have no problems feinting unless it's against like a longaxe or similar spammy polearm. They do need to slow down some polearm stats though.