Poll

Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows

Yes
73 (70.9%)
No, because...
30 (29.1%)

Total Members Voted: 103

Author Topic: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?  (Read 4056 times)

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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« on: June 03, 2014, 10:33:03 pm »
+15
I think pin point accuracy is a problem with tiny bows. Noone should have such good aim .

Getting pin-point accuracy with nomad or tatar bow isn't a problem, but IMO it should be impossible.

Below I posted screenshots while aiming with bows.
Every bow I used is MW, I have 6 PD and 198 wpf in archery (dedicated archer 18/27 lvl 35)
horn bow
(click to show/hide)
rus bow
(click to show/hide)
long bow
(click to show/hide)

As you can see non of those bows have pin point accuracy.
IMO max accuracy should be the one like on horn bow.
X-bows max accuracy is capped so why we shouldn't we have same thing in bows?

Why I'm for removing pin point accuracy?
1. There's no man at earth that can shoot tons of arrows in exactly same point. Body is getting tired and hands are shaking.
2. There are hardly ever perfect weather conditions allowing to make thing from point 1.

Admins can call this accuracy cap "wind factor" os something like that.


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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2014, 10:39:49 pm »
0
hehe we use the same crosshair

+1 agree though, the nomad/tatar needs an nerf

Offline Kafein

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 10:40:01 pm »
+8
Low CoF is good because it puts power in the hands of the player, it pushes the skill ceiling higher. CoF is pure RNG and is a bad way of simulating imperfect accuracy. But we can't implement something better.

In my opinion the good way of reducing accuracy is to nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. Right now projectiles fly much too fast, hence very little leading is required. Making arrows slower would punish bad archery and reward good archery. Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy. Making the time window shorter would introduce an element of timing similar to hold breath mechanics in traditional FPS. That would increase the player skill requirement for using a bow.

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 10:42:57 pm »
+3
...nerf missile speed...
I'm talking about it for a really long time :)
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Offline Jeade

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 11:46:57 pm »
+2
nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. ... Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy.

How about no.
If you're suggesting nerfing the missile speed on the nomad bow, yes, do that.
That would effectively put the bow in its place as a low tier bow.
The nomad bow's draw speed is absurd for its accuracy and missile speed, and as it follows, damage.

The other bows are fine.

As for the OP, pinpoint accuracy shouldn't be part of the game (personal opinion, strictly).
However, using a build with 198 archery WPF is far outside the norm from most archers.
The level 35 part should be bolded or something in the main post.

Maybe it's different in EU, but I'm not familiar with any archers in NA, save maybe one, who use a build like that.
If they are using a build like that, it's never been effective enough for me to notice.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 12:02:54 am »
+2
You can easilly make a stf char with pinpoint accuracy
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 12:10:15 am »
+2
COF doesn't separate the good and bad players. It doesn't punish you for doing badly or reward you for doing well

If accurate ranged is an issue that says a lot about the game mechanics. The parameters that determine whether a shot is good or not is the problem. ATM you just have minimal missile speed that makes you lead a target a bit, with minimal projectile dip that means you don't have to judge the distance so much. There is no modern game mechanics like sway of the weapon..its a fixed point that never deviates. With a xbow you can hold the shot forever. You can even run&gun with them. No momentum when you turn. Loads of ammo so you aren't punished for just spamming. Its just got a very "meh" set of game mechanics, so much so that people don't even want people to hit stuff even if they couldn't physically do anything better as far as the game is concerned. They will just miss based on random chance rather than something to do with how the players interact with the game

Ranged should be more of a player vs player system. Enemies should be able to counter by playing well (dodging). Ranged should have to be more careful with ammo and do more to make a "good" shot. But if you do well you should not be punished with a random chance of missing
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Offline Little Lord Lollipop

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 12:16:58 am »
+1
Balance bows through pricing, the intra-class stats balance is fine. Right now the higher tier bows are for archers who wish to counter heavy armor, the little bows are best to counter other range. The problem with bows is that lower tier bows are too cheap and higher tier bows are too expensive.
Every bow is currently viable at the moment which gives a lot of diversity to the class (unlike in the past when everyone and their mother used a rus bow etc etc).

TLDR; Balance bow prices, don't fuck with the stats.
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 12:19:47 am »
+4
Missile speeds is something I am thinking about again and again and I can see how the system right now feels kinda awkward but I am hesitating to propose a change yet. This is why:

Prior to the low tier bows missile-speed-buff, next to nobody used them. Other than melee weapons, bows dont have a lot of stats than can be messed around with, which makes it pretty difficult to make bow tier progression interesting and diversified.

Melee weapons can have very diverse combinations of stats, drawing from a large pool of modifiers such as weight, length, speed, swing damage, swing damage type, thrust damage, thrust damage type, balanced, unbalanced, bonues against shields, crushthrough, 4 directional, 3 directional, 2 directional, knockdown, horse rearing, no parry and probably more. This is why we have a metric ton of melee weapons which, more or less still all feel different and come with their distinct benefits and downsides instead of just being straight upgrades or clones from each other.

Bows on the other hand are very limited in that regard. Pretty much the only stats that matter for bow performance are speed rating, damage, accuracy and missile speed. Sure, bows have weight as well but the weight of a bow will have no impact on balance when it comes to the actual shooting performance. An arrow from a 2kg bow will have the exact same ballistical properties as an arrow shot from a 10kg bow, contrary to melee weaponry where weight actually affects turnrate, knockdown probability, movement speed and block stun probability.

Even accuracy is a bit problematic to look at as a balancing factor IMO since it is a non-skill related modifier and not a constant that can be mastered by player skill. To give yet another example, no matter how low the speed rating of your melee weapon is, a skilled player will know the limitations of this low speed rating and be able to act accordingly. You dont try to outspam a katana with a longspear but rather keep your distance and take advantage of your reach so the low speed rating is least likely to get in your way. With an inaccurate bow though, it does not matter how skilled of an archer you are, if RNG decides to mess up your shot you cant do anything about that and this is not good gamedesign at all.

With this said, I'd rather not touch accuracy if its avoidable and rather work with damage, speed rating and missile speed. With only 3 variables at hand though, the possibilities to create an interesting and fair progression among bows is obviously quite restricted. This situation begs for the implementation of a new mechanic such as "reticule sway rating" or something alike. However, I talked to Tydeus about these things a lot and unfortunately the gameengine is just too limited to realize any of that.

So what are we left with ?

We can have low tier bows with fast reload, low damage and slow arrows ( old system ), we can have low tier bows with fast reload, low damage and fast arrows ( current system ). Giving low tier bows more damage than high tier bows is out of the question and giving high tier bows faster reload than low tier bows also seems a bit weird.

I repeat, the current system is bugging me as well every now and then but when considering all the alternatives this engine can offer, I think the current system is still the one that offers the most fair bow progression IMO. This is why I am hesitating to propose anything different yet. For now, I am afraid any attempts to "fix" internal bow balance might break more than needs to be repaired. At least unless cmp will come up with some magic that adds new balancing tool for ranged into the game.

This is how I look at it. Nevertheless, I appreciate any form of constructive criticism or suggestions as long as they are more elaborated than "nerf missile speed" because that would require a stat rework for all bows in order to keep bow progression at an appropriate proportion.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 12:45:17 am »
0
XyNox
By nerfing misile speed I mean decreasing it on nomad and tatar bow to values close to horn bow have atm.
Why? Horn bow is strongest (highest DMG) from one slot composit bows (i'm not talking about yumi, this bow is kind a joke and missundestand for me).
So it should mean that arrows released from it should have higher speed.

Non loomed horn bow have 44 missile speed. IMO you should try and give 43 ms for nomad bow and 45 for tatar bow (as i know it's recurved bow and accumulated energy in it is higher than in horn bow with same dimentions).
Changing only missile speed you will not naef them directly. They will be still perfect against other ranged because of their speed and accuracy, archers will only have to get used to a bit slower projectiles and that's all.

Making arrows a bit slower you will force archers to have higher skill in aiming because ATM shooting with tatar bow is close to shooting with rifle. Aim, click, hit, because arrows are really hard to dodge in medium range.

Let's give a try for decreasing missile on those two bows for let's say a week with stats I suggested and you will see that good archers will still kill with them, and noobs will have to increase their skill in aiming to be effective.
 
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Offline XyNox

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 01:27:55 am »
+3
I see your point about the required player skill Steevee. Nobody likes to be killed by a player of inferior playerskill just because his equipment is doing the job for him.

A nomad bow with 43 missile speed and 21 damage will be quite useless though.

Even with the high missile speed of 48 the nomad bow has right now it is a subpar choice against anything in medium armour and up. Because of the way armour soak works, bodkins scale a lot better with high base bow damage than with low base bow damage. Also, the ammo efficiency is poor compared to harder hitting bows and the maximum damage increase of powerdraw is reached quite early at just 6 PD.

With 43 missile speed this thing would probably never be seen again appart from low tier dtv "leech" waves and maybe rageball. There may be some melee weapons as well which are not exactly overused but contrary to melee weapons where we have a stunning total of 180 items, the bow category just offers 8. This proposal would make the nomad bow the new shortbow, which also nobody uses other than for trolling.

I am sorry, this bow may be annoying, especially against archers but I dont see how its overall battlefield performance is justifying a major nerf like this. I remember the times before the missile speed overhaul and taking a rusbow/longbow was a no brainer there. These days however I constantly switch bows because of their distinct benefits and downsides and I think this is a good thing.

I will talk to the council again, maybe there are some technical possibilities that havent been considered yet.

E: prices on the otherhand could use some reevaluation I guess.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 01:43:42 am »
+3
Nerf archers.

Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 02:18:42 am »
+3
Steevee: just look at who are the "balance team" atm, and Xynox as item advisor, and give up all hope. Common sense, historical accuracy and game balance have been thrown to the dogs long ago, best to shake head, grimace and think to yourself what could have been.
I don't know enough

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Offline Jona

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 02:34:03 am »
+1
Nobody likes to be killed by a player of inferior playerskill just because his equipment is doing the job for him.

Heh... if this was the case no one would be playing crpg.
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Offline Dark_Blade

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Re: Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 02:35:56 am »
+3
in my opinion the one and only good way to fix the issue is removing the ranged and bows especially
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