Should we remove pin point accuracy from bows?

[Joseph Porta]

Nomad and tatar bows are quite simply headshot machines, headshots are far too easy with these. Playing with unloomed bows getting headshots is the only way to effectively get kills if you are not solely aiming for unarmored players.

[Molly]

I thought that I arranged myself with archers. They felt less annoying for some reason.
Over the last couple of days I noticed that those dead on accurate machine guns seem to be back. Dunno how or why but being headshot or killed by 3 bodyshots in rapid succession by a tiny horn bow across half the map is kinda screwed up.
I improved in dodging quite a bit and manage to do it a lot. But it only works to a degree. When 3 archers aim for you and you manage to dodge 8 out of 10 arrows, you're still dead in a few seconds.

I don't claim to know a proper way to counter such a development but I've seen at least 10 people switching server or straight quitting the game, just on this one map. That ain't cool.

[Teeth]

I think giving the low tier bows high missile speed was a huge mistake. As has been argued in this thread their low damage and high missile speed makes other archers the perfect target, but I just think that is an extremely lame way of balancing things. For example, I used to play lance cavalry in a very anti infantry focused way. High PS and low movement speed, hanging around the fight, distracting people and dishing out a lot of hits. Very often however, there would be couch cavalry players that completely focus on killing other cavalry and it is incredibly annoying. I am trying to make my team win by using my horse to influence the outcome of group fights the best I can, and these fast cav fucks only focus on getting easy cav kills which makes them the perfect counter to my playstyle.

The same scenario has been happening to longbow archers, but then increased by a factor of like 10. Now I don't usually sympathize with pure archers and arguing against ranged countering ranged is probably not smart, but giving the fastest and most accurate bows such vastly superior missile speed values is just a huge big fuck you to any archer that is trying to make his team win by taking out key infantry targets. I honestly don't know how the likes of Steevee and jtobiasm haven't GTX'ed in the face of the balance encouraging people like Shokoshugi to focus on nothing else but ruining their day, all day.

Missile speed is the devil and it should be nerfed to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Pin-point accuracy is fine but increase accuracy sway from moving quickly from side to side, decrease missile speed and increase how fast accuracy reduces from holding your shot. Timing and leading your targets are the only sources for really putting skill into archery.

[Algarn]

(click to show/hide)

I think giving the low tier bows high missile speed was a huge mistake. As has been argued in this thread their low damage and high missile speed makes other archers the perfect target, but I just think that is an extremely lame way of balancing things. For example, I used to play lance cavalry in a very anti infantry focused way. High PS and low movement speed, hanging around the fight, distracting people and dishing out a lot of hits. Very often however, there would be couch cavalry players that completely focus on killing other cavalry and it is incredibly annoying. I am trying to make my team win by using my horse to influence the outcome of group fights the best I can, and these fast cav fucks only focus on getting easy cav kills which makes them the perfect counter to my playstyle.

The same scenario has been happening to longbow archers, but then increased by a factor of like 10. Now I don't usually sympathize with pure archers and arguing against ranged countering ranged is probably not smart, but giving the fastest and most accurate bows such vastly superior missile speed values is just a huge big fuck you to any archer that is trying to make his team win by taking out key infantry targets. I honestly don't know how the likes of Steevee and jtobiasm haven't GTX'ed in the face of the balance encouraging people like Shokoshugi to focus on nothing else but ruining their day, all day.

Missile speed is the devil and it should be nerfed to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Pin-point accuracy is fine but increase accuracy sway from moving quickly from side to side, decrease missile speed and increase how fast accuracy reduces from holding your shot. Timing and leading your targets are the only sources for really putting skill into archery.

Agreed to everything, except for the last part about increasing how fast accuracy should decrease when you hold. This last part should depend exclusively, or at least, principally of PD. Strength archer builds aren't that viable already, no need to fuck them again (low wpf  = shit holding time, which is already shitty)

[BlindGuy]

Blah blah blah I dont ever watch and learn from my mistakes.

(click to show/hide)

You fucked it up son. But changing the bows to make the ludicrous numbers we have now was your baby, so what should I say? You changes are retarded? change them back? Who cares if noone used the low tier bows, this is a mod for MOUNT AND FUCKING BLADE NOT BOW AND FUCKING ARROW, if NOONE used a bow again it would be NO BAD THING. But no matter how well I explain to you that making ranged MORE accurate is NOT good, you will just flank as you always do and come back with some nonsensical shit like "Oh EU stacks more armor"......as for the changes to overheads, you ruined at least 10 weapons that are not used much, now not used at all. Well done. And I have to ask myself, WHY are you doing this to the mod? Why do you make a change? Is it because you have examined a problem and tried to solve it? No, it's because you have imagined a problem, or personally encountered something that has fucked you, or because you just want to do something because you are bored, because honestly, if you REALLY have the best interests of the mod at heart: STEP AWAY. STOP.

As far as the smaller bows: 1/ Their accuracy/damage/firerate is obscene, and I'll explain it simply so Tydeus can manage the ideas without getting his head sweaty: I will use simplified values and use A and B to make this as easy as possible:

Weapon A hits for 100 dmg, can fire once a second and has an accuracy of 100.
Weapon B hits for 60 dmg, can fire three times in 2 seconds and has an accuracy of 150.

Which does more dmg? Well, tbh, its B, isnt it? While A may hurt more, B has higher DPS since it has better rate of fire. But targets move and try to avoid being hit: who is going to hit more? Well, again B, since B is more accurate, and also has better rate of fire, so since you are firing more shots, with better accuracy, so missing is not such a big deal, missing one shot is a much smaller dent in your DPS for weapon B.

So weapon B is the superior, since in a live battle situation, the rate of fire combined with the accuracy mean 1/ you have more hits, more often and 2/ you have more OPPORTUNITY for hitting since you dont have to prepare for so long before shooting.

So B is the better weapon.

BUT WAIT THERES MORE: We will make the misiles fired by B FASTER than those fired by A. So now B does more effective damage due to hitting more often AND has faster misiles. B really is a good choice at this point.

SO surely, we can all see B is better: A must be cheaper right? NO, B is cheaper. Ok that's retarded? sure it is. Good point.

WAIT THERES MORE!!!

You don't need as high stats for B.

Wait WHAT? its the better weapon, with higher effective damage, costs less, and is EASIER to use? That's silly man. Yep, sure is.

What's the effect of this ease of use? Well the effect is that the user can put more of his points into agility, so he gets to RUN AWAY FASTER, SHOOT FASTER, AND MORE ACCURATELY!!

Long story short: B is faster, more deadly, more accurate, cheaper, gives more utility to the user.

YOUR A FUCKING RETARD TYDEUS. Happy  now? Fuck me.

[Teeth]

Few people manage to present such a flawed argument in such a cocksure manner ^

[BlindGuy]

Not really flawed though is it Teeth?

[Teeth]

Weapon A hits for 100 dmg, can fire once a second and has an accuracy of 100.
Weapon B hits for 60 dmg, can fire three times in 2 seconds and has an accuracy of 150.

Which does more dmg? Well, tbh, its B, isnt it? While A may hurt more, B has higher DPS since it has better rate of fire.

Well, first of all there is this

A) 1 * 100 = 100 dps
B) 1,5 * 60 = 90 dps

A has higher DPS

Though even that little error is irrelevant, as you simply pulled some numbers out of your arse. Calling someone a 'fucking retard' because you invented a case where he is wrong is quite an incredible way of handling things. Your guesstimates of damage, accuracy and fire rate are downright terrible and if you are lucky Tydeus will spare you the real math. The argumentation itself is sound, but an argument based on flawed data is a flawed argument by default.

[BlindGuy]

Yes teeth, because every shot taken by every archer is a hit. Not one miss. Ever.

EDIT: your being slow today teeth so let me explain: Miss once with bow A = ZERO dps.
Miss once with bow B and u get another go before A does.

And sure, the numbers are random, I'm just trying to explain the idea that when you can shoot much faster and more accurately your damage output is higher, since you hit more often, even if not a higher % of your shots fired.

Combine that with added mobility of the shooter, it's a no brainer. He took it from there being 3 effective bows to 2. Now they are cheaper and fire more often, with increased accuracy. He literally did the opposite of what he claimed he was aiming for.

I tried asking Tydeus nicely many months ago to stop. Now all I can say is that his personality or something in his psyche is making him do these things since it cannot be a genuine concern for the good of the game. Hes a nice guy too, we have chatted by text a few times, but he has lost the plot Teeth.

Today, I look like the dick, because of how I express myself. In a few months, you will all feel the same, if Tydeus keeps "balancing".

But if what I write on an internet forum is going to offend Tydeus I have greatly misjudged him.

[JasonPastman]

I agree most with the following,

Low CoF is good because it puts power in the hands of the player, it pushes the skill ceiling higher. CoF is pure RNG and is a bad way of simulating imperfect accuracy. But we can't implement something better.

In my opinion the good way of reducing accuracy is to nerf missile speed, and increase the timing constraint. Right now projectiles fly much too fast, hence very little leading is required. Making arrows slower would punish bad archery and reward good archery. Additionally, a bow can be held fully drawn for much too long without losing significant power and accuracy. Making the time window shorter would introduce an element of timing similar to hold breath mechanics in traditional FPS. That would increase the player skill requirement for using a bow.

It's just that I get head shot and I see other sharing in the same fate way to often (the game feels and the "death feed" (or what ever you call it) looks like CSGO way to often).  Much of the time when I'm head shot, it's while I'm on horseback with 9 riding.

Secondly, I can't chase HA's down without getting dismounted often times before I can hit them once.  Which means if they are targeting me which is often the case on NA1, I've got to spend the round avoiding and generally evading them, which is absolutely no fun, just frustrating really. 

Most long time players that I talk to think cRPG's current problem is that it's too balanced (understandable).

I've been around since 2010, and I agree the game is very balanced right now (and that balance is a very good thing that can't be over done), especially with this last patch, however I feel that something needs to be done with archery, and I think Kafein's idea is not only the way to go but is also quickly implementable.

[Tydeus]

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(click to show/hide)

You fucked it up son. But changing the bows to make the ludicrous numbers we have now was your baby, so what should I say? You changes are retarded? change them back? Who cares if noone used the low tier bows, this is a mod for MOUNT AND FUCKING BLADE NOT BOW AND FUCKING ARROW, if NOONE used a bow again it would be NO BAD THING. But no matter how well I explain to you that making ranged MORE accurate is NOT good, you will just flank as you always do and come back with some nonsensical shit like "Oh EU stacks more armor"......as for the changes to overheads, you ruined at least 10 weapons that are not used much, now not used at all. Well done. And I have to ask myself, WHY are you doing this to the mod? Why do you make a change? Is it because you have examined a problem and tried to solve it? No, it's because you have imagined a problem, or personally encountered something that has fucked you, or because you just want to do something because you are bored, because honestly, if you REALLY have the best interests of the mod at heart: STEP AWAY. STOP.

As far as the smaller bows: 1/ Their accuracy/damage/firerate is obscene, and I'll explain it simply so Tydeus can manage the ideas without getting his head sweaty: I will use simplified values and use A and B to make this as easy as possible:

Weapon A hits for 100 dmg, can fire once a second and has an accuracy of 100.
Weapon B hits for 60 dmg, can fire three times in 2 seconds and has an accuracy of 150.

Which does more dmg? Well, tbh, its B, isnt it? While A may hurt more, B has higher DPS since it has better rate of fire. But targets move and try to avoid being hit: who is going to hit more? Well, again B, since B is more accurate, and also has better rate of fire, so since you are firing more shots, with better accuracy, so missing is not such a big deal, missing one shot is a much smaller dent in your DPS for weapon B.

So weapon B is the superior, since in a live battle situation, the rate of fire combined with the accuracy mean 1/ you have more hits, more often and 2/ you have more OPPORTUNITY for hitting since you dont have to prepare for so long before shooting.

So B is the better weapon.

BUT WAIT THERES MORE: We will make the misiles fired by B FASTER than those fired by A. So now B does more effective damage due to hitting more often AND has faster misiles. B really is a good choice at this point.

SO surely, we can all see B is better: A must be cheaper right? NO, B is cheaper. Ok that's retarded? sure it is. Good point.

WAIT THERES MORE!!!

You don't need as high stats for B.

Wait WHAT? its the better weapon, with higher effective damage, costs less, and is EASIER to use? That's silly man. Yep, sure is.

What's the effect of this ease of use? Well the effect is that the user can put more of his points into agility, so he gets to RUN AWAY FASTER, SHOOT FASTER, AND MORE ACCURATELY!!

Long story short: B is faster, more deadly, more accurate, cheaper, gives more utility to the user.

YOUR A FUCKING RETARD TYDEUS. Happy  now? Fuck me.

You sir, are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Please leave the arguing up to the rest of the community.



If you'll notice in my post with the damage calculations, damages range from 2/3 to 1/2 (Red column Longbow, Blue column Horn, Yellow column Nomad). The thing you're not keeping in mind, is that it doesn't take into account distance or player movement. This means you will almost always do less damage (except for headshots) than what this calculator shows. But distance doesn't reduce damage post armor soak/reduce, it factors into the raw. Its at this point, that if you don't immediately go "I see, guess I overlooked something in my argument" you don't deserve to be discussing balance through numbers, as you clearly don't understand how the numbers work.

Furthermore, your argument about PD requirements is a moot point. Sure you can use a nomad bow with only 2 PD but no one does that, because any bow at lower than 4 PD will be complete garbage for damage. Every single point in Power Draw adds just over 15% damage in effect (because of wpf). It doesn't really matter how fast you are, if you consistently hit for a mere 5 damage on the average opponent, and bounce on anyone in plate.

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Keep in mind that 40 armor is closer to the average armor for archers and that the average for melee is about 60, depending on when and where you're playing. Also, I just realized that I hadn't fixed things for when I was testing 0p bodkins, so the cut arrow side is actually using a 12 cut Tatar, rather than a 10 (the 'c' column takes the damage from the pierce column and adds a set amount from there). So in most situations, damages on the cut side will actually be 1-2 points lower (all except the 2pd 70 armor setup, which is about .8 lower).

Again, as I have said in the past, I could see reducing projectile speed by 1 to 2 points on the nomad/tatar/horn, and as I mentioned yesterday in IRC to XyNox, possibly also reduce the difference in rate of fire between bows. New features are out of the question, though.

[Algarn]

Again, as I have said in the past, I could see reducing projectile speed by 1 to 2 points on the nomad/tatar/horn.

In the next patch or december 2010 ?  ;)

[HarunYahya]

Don't nerf archers.
Enough with fucking nerfs.

Nerf melee, nerf cav, nerf ranged, nerf armor wtf is this? It is a damn battle game and at the end all men must die how the fuck we gonna die if you keep nerfing everything ?

Enough with "make archery so fucked up so only skilled archers may do some good" idea.
Look at 2h, give you cat a 2h sword and watch it top the fucking scoreboard.

Deal with it. Seriously fed up with nerfs...

[Gnjus]

Few people manage to present such a flawed argument in such a cocksure manner ^

Few people manage to get their asses muted in such a convincing manner like this Blind Guy.  A few of us here were handed a 100% mutilations back in the day but we could all learn from this guy how to act like complete and utter imbeciles while totally uncalled for. We couldn't even role-play it let alone mean it.

You sir, are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Please leave the arguing up to the rest of the community.

You're completely in the wrong job there Yank, you should've been a dedicated forum moderator instead of item balancer, I'd dare say you do it much better.

[the real god emperor]

Why can't we focus on more important things like Crossbow is being 2 slots and no one is using it except SB_SeeYa ?
Or Shashka being removed