Author Topic: Roman Armor and Weapons  (Read 14510 times)

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Offline Armbrust_Schtze

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2011, 01:35:31 pm »
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thats bs i pray chadz will never implement acient stuff
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2011, 02:42:01 pm »
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They've so far only omitted things which are completely gamebreaking, like guns, and complete anachronisms, like armour specifically designed to stop bullets.

Why would guns be gamebreaking, and where is the limit that marks an item as a complete anachronism? Also, on what scale do you measure anachronism? If you measure it on the time scale, a kevlar armor is a less grave anachronism than a classical era roman armor. If you measure it on another scale, please explain which and provide examples of how some of the currently implemented items are ranked on it.
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Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2011, 04:33:12 pm »
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Why would guns be gamebreaking, and where is the limit that marks an item as a complete anachronism? Also, on what scale do you measure anachronism? If you measure it on the time scale, a kevlar armor is a less grave anachronism than a classical era roman armor. If you measure it on another scale, please explain which and provide examples of how some of the currently implemented items are ranked on it.
Guns would be game breaking because it'd be point, click, kill
I think he's on about a technological scale tbh

Offline zagibu

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2011, 05:00:02 pm »
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You mean like a crossbow?

Also, what is a technological scale? How is a sword rated on a technological scale compared to an automobile?
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Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2011, 06:05:49 pm »
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You mean like a crossbow?

Also, what is a technological scale? How is a sword rated on a technological scale compared to an automobile?
Compared to the automobile, the sword is much lower. The earl roman armours and weaponry are on a relatively equal scale to current weaponry. Made using same techniques, materials etc

EDIT: Crossbow don't have magazines of 30 or whatever gun they'd put in, bullet travel times are infinitly faster than a crossbow with much much less drop
Also, stop taking the piss and be seriuos
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 06:07:11 pm by LordRichrich »

Offline Diomedes

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2011, 06:28:39 pm »
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Why would guns be gamebreaking, and where is the limit that marks an item as a complete anachronism? Also, on what scale do you measure anachronism? If you measure it on the time scale, a kevlar armor is a less grave anachronism than a classical era roman armor. If you measure it on another scale, please explain which and provide examples of how some of the currently implemented items are ranked on it.

Guns would completely reformat gameplay.  Even basic 1-shot guns shoot projectiles faster than one could possibly dodge, they're often armour piercing, and are small enough that a couple can be carried at a time (along with a bucket of ammunition).  Crossbows are armour piercing, yes, require little skill for short-medium range shooting, yes, but they don't fire faster than one can move and they're quite bulky too. 

As for the scale of anachronism I was considering context more than chronology.  Kevlar is out of context, it seems, because it exists as a reaction to firearm technology.  Roman gladii, on the other hand, are a reaction to frequent close combat fighting and a need for a reliable rudimentary close-range stabbing weapon.  The concerns that prompted the use of gladii by the Romans are very similar to other cRPG gear.  The huscarl shield, for example, could stop arrows from any distance and batter people too.  This is almost identical to the purpose of the large Roman shields used in the later Republican era for forming anti-projectile formations and for battering Celts.  It's also quite similar to the massive shields employed by Athenians in spear walls when they fought Philip of Macedon.

These are my perceived criteria for how the devs gauge which gear to include.  Of course they may have a different system (and likely do), and of course this system becomes much more subjective on the periphery, but it doesn't seem massively incoherent to me.  And, as I said, there doesn't seem to be a developer's manifesto laying about.  This is probably the case for a number of reasons but one of them is likely so they're not tied down to anything in particular.  In two years time it may be that there are guns in cRPG, and in four years time there are WWI-era tanks.  Until then, though, players are free to make suggestions and argue for the inclusion of items into the game so long as they seem to fit the gameplay the devs are pursuing.

Remember that I said earlier that this was all based on the developer's own standard of reasonableness.  I'm not sure what that is and, of course, propositions about what it could be^ are largely guesswork.

Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2011, 06:45:14 pm »
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*cough* Reason *cough* Nord *cough* Lobbyists

Offline zagibu

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2011, 08:38:28 pm »
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Compared to the automobile, the sword is much lower. The earl roman armours and weaponry are on a relatively equal scale to current weaponry. Made using same techniques, materials etc

EDIT: Crossbow don't have magazines of 30 or whatever gun they'd put in, bullet travel times are infinitly faster than a crossbow with much much less drop
Also, stop taking the piss and be seriuos

I am actually quite serious. I don't like roman stuff. There is also no reason speaking against or in favor of including it besides "the more items, the better", which is a silly argument that can also be used to include lightsabers, string tangas and space marine armor.

Your technological scale seems to be a bit fuzzy. Where on your scale is the interval for acceptable items located? Slightly above plate armor and fathoms below the automobile? Sounds like a convenient scale supporting your opinion. Oh wait, it is worthless, because it was defined by your self.

Guns would completely reformat gameplay.  Even basic 1-shot guns shoot projectiles faster than one could possibly dodge, they're often armour piercing, and are small enough that a couple can be carried at a time (along with a bucket of ammunition).  Crossbows are armour piercing, yes, require little skill for short-medium range shooting, yes, but they don't fire faster than one can move and they're quite bulky too. 

As for the scale of anachronism I was considering context more than chronology.  Kevlar is out of context, it seems, because it exists as a reaction to firearm technology.  Roman gladii, on the other hand, are a reaction to frequent close combat fighting and a need for a reliable rudimentary close-range stabbing weapon.  The concerns that prompted the use of gladii by the Romans are very similar to other cRPG gear.  The huscarl shield, for example, could stop arrows from any distance and batter people too.  This is almost identical to the purpose of the large Roman shields used in the later Republican era for forming anti-projectile formations and for battering Celts.  It's also quite similar to the massive shields employed by Athenians in spear walls when they fought Philip of Macedon.

These are my perceived criteria for how the devs gauge which gear to include.  Of course they may have a different system (and likely do), and of course this system becomes much more subjective on the periphery, but it doesn't seem massively incoherent to me.  And, as I said, there doesn't seem to be a developer's manifesto laying about.  This is probably the case for a number of reasons but one of them is likely so they're not tied down to anything in particular.  In two years time it may be that there are guns in cRPG, and in four years time there are WWI-era tanks.  Until then, though, players are free to make suggestions and argue for the inclusion of items into the game so long as they seem to fit the gameplay the devs are pursuing.

Remember that I said earlier that this was all based on the developer's own standard of reasonableness.  I'm not sure what that is and, of course, propositions about what it could be^ are largely guesswork.

So your criteria for including or excluding weapons is similarity to already existing weapons, or relation in terms of whether an item was created to counter one that is already included in the mod. Using the first acceptance criterium, why not include lightsabers? They are like swords. Or what about motorcycles? They are like horses. Modern riot shields made from plexiglass? They are like all the other shields already in the mod.
Using your second criterium, early firearms and cannons would match. They were a counter to armor and stone walls. Of course, the arms race would continue, and finally, we would arrive at modern equipment.

It can be easily seen that both criteria are worthless as a base for decision for or against including an item into cRPG. As it stands, you still don't have provided an argument in favor of your roman stuff.

Why don't you simply make a poll that will let the player base decide?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:40:49 pm by zagibu »
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Offline Diomedes

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2011, 12:12:59 am »
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Using your second criterium, early firearms and cannons would match. They were a counter to armor and stone walls. Of course, the arms race would continue, and finally, we would arrive at modern equipment.

I already said that cRPG may eventually evolve with dramatically different kinds of weaponry, including much more modern gear, but that this is somewhat checked by developer discretion.  Similarity to existing weapons, together with the relational criterion and considerations for balanced gameplay, may best describe the current method used.  This negates lightsabers, which though superficially similar to swords were in fact developed and constructed very differently, and early guns, which occupy a similar historical context to some current cRPG weapons but have a) very different mechanics from current weapons b) may be very overpowered c) would fundamentally and radically change gameplay/tactics.

Quote
Why don't you simply make a poll that will let the player base decide?

The same reasons plebiscites aren't held for most modern political decisions.

Offline zagibu

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2011, 12:47:07 am »
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The same reasons plebiscites aren't held for most modern political decisions.

The same reasons? So you think the cRPG players are not well enough informed to make such a difficult decision (one of the arguments against plebiscites)? I think more that you fear the eventual outcome...
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Offline Diomedes

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2011, 02:46:58 am »
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The same reasons? So you think the cRPG players are not well enough informed to make such a difficult decision (one of the arguments against plebiscites)? I think more that you fear the eventual outcome...

I've read quite a few posts on this forum, along with many comments in the in-game chat, and have found many of them wanting for curiosity, temperance, enthusiasm, analysis, and correct grammar.  I do not trust these particular people to make wise or informed decisions about modifying cRPG.

Offline Myltinous

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2011, 03:23:53 am »
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So your criteria for including or excluding weapons is similarity to already existing weapons, or relation in terms of whether an item was created to counter one that is already included in the mod. Using the first acceptance criterium, why not include lightsabers? They are like swords. Or what about motorcycles? They are like horses. Modern riot shields made from plexiglass? They are like all the other shields already in the mod.
Using your second criterium, early firearms and cannons would match. They were a counter to armor and stone walls. Of course, the arms race would continue, and finally, we would arrive at modern equipment.

I think you're going a bit overboard here. Loosen up  :D. If you don't want any armor/weapons added that will take away from your theme try thinking of what others want. For example: I don't like the Japanese armor/weapons in this mod. But instead of complaining about them, I take a moment think; not about how upset I am about it, but about how the other playing is enjoying their character. Then I realize that when I think that way I don't mind that there are ninjas and samurais amongst us.

Then I get a katana through the head  :D
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Offline Lisandro

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2011, 11:11:05 am »
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I agree with zagibo in all, i dont want a look like roman soldier in crpg, i prefere the half rus/weaboo/mongol warrios on plated charger with torch.
shit, waste ur time on another topic guy
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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2011, 11:23:20 am »
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I think you're going a bit overboard here. Loosen up  :D. If you don't want any armor/weapons added that will take away from your theme try thinking of what others want. For example: I don't like the Japanese armor/weapons in this mod. But instead of complaining about them, I take a moment think; not about how upset I am about it, but about how the other playing is enjoying their character. Then I realize that when I think that way I don't mind that there are ninjas and samurais amongst us.

Then I get a katana through the head  :D
Yes. Why won't they get it? cRPG does not enforce any strict, specific RP, it just gives various options on how to RP your own character. That is what it has always been about. Having more options on how to do it is ALWAYS better.

Offline Gheritarish le Loki

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Re: Roman Armor and Weapons
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2011, 11:33:41 am »
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good post Myltinous, you think of other ppl fun and i guess that´s what is all about.

What i don´t understand it´s discussion about time line, it´s a fantasy world with no real time line. Then it´s more a matter of style. There is a big demand for roman/greek gears, i don´t see why we can satisfy this ppl as the ninja/weabo.

I will not wear roman gear, but i don´t mind if some ppl could enjoy wearing this.

Btw, the solution is may be to make some models that are not historical accurate but that will fit in a spartan/roman style, just as said Phantom, it´s fantasy, make a new model that fit in crpg too.