Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)

[Osiris]

i remember when jump shot got removed ppl said it's not realistic
but getting shot in legs and keep running like a rabbit is realistic ? without losing any speed just for few sec ?
so now all inf are like terminators ?

this change was not needed !

ppl cry about amount of ranged, about archers the first bigest mistake was to give normal bows same damage as a mw one. you should start to fix mistake did in past before add some news ...

about decreasing zoom gonna make more team hit coz it's hard to reconize team mate from far distance ...  what a stupid change again ...

oh noes now an arrow staggers as much as a big fuck off axe to the head! seriously from what i can read your weapon now has the same hit effect as any other weapon unless you hit really hard then they stagger?


Why should archers have stagger when no one else does btw? what reasoning do you have for wanting it

[Ronin]

devs really intend to nerf archery till they all quit the game. thats the only logical explanation of this stupid stun-removing.

It is already started
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/gold-masterworks-and-loompoints-give-away/

[Osiris]

meh i still fear crpg archers more than native ones

Archers shouldn't have stun just like they shouldn't be able to kite forever, what they should be able to do is melee back pretty well like they used to

[Tydeus]

I even shot a guy that were swinging his weapon, but no stun no nothing so his attack wasnt even cancelled (yes, I shot him in the stomach).

I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.

[Ronin]

I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.

This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other. I like the changes from a game design perspective, but something else must be given in exchange in my opinion. You are meddling with the game balance too much while improving the game.

[Angantyr]

Because Strategus is starting. These numbers wont be the same in a week.

Yeah, didn't mention player numbers as in reference to the opening post, though it may have seemed so.

[Kafein]

Seriously guys, you always say I'm whining but look at you now.

I have a list of things to say in case something like this happens so here it comes:

• Deal with it
• Get a shield lol
• Use tactics
• Use teamwork
• Use map design at your advantage
• Learn to dodge
• Every class has counters
• The class that is killing you is hard to play
• If you don't like the game, you can always quit. We both know that won't happen
• You anti-melee lobbyists sound like a broken record

In other news, I'm not exactly fond of the new stab sweetspots but it's far from the end of the world. My main problem with it is that it is basically a huge buff to armor. Stabs were definitely too strong, but maybe they could be nerfed with respect to swings in some other way that doesn't increase the power of armor so much. In other words, maybe swings could get a buff instead, or a mix of a stab nerf + swing buff.


Finally, if you get hit by a melee player that you just shot because he was not staggered, that means you should have used your melee weapon instead.

[Osiris]

This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other.

boo hoo don't keep shooting until the plated guy is in melee range? maybe change to melee before he is about to slap you in the face

[jtobiasm]

I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.

Why don't you ask an experienced archer aka bagge to see what needs fixing with archery. Instead of doing these bullshit changes?

[Ronin]

boo hoo don't keep shooting until the plated guy is in melee range? maybe change to melee before he is about to slap you in the face

I just updated the post actually.

In general, I think archers shooting in very close range is absolutely bullshit. A cavalry coming into close doesn't have time of 1 seconds to lower his shield to hit the archer. After this change, now they will be able to. Which is really really nice. Cavalry can be a decent counter to archers. I really like this change personally, and I think it will improve the game. This can force the archers to also carefully plan their positioning, just like a good infantry player should be doing.

The balance must be restored a bit, that's all. By other changes. Maybe better stats in melee, for archers?

[Tydeus]

This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other. I like the changes from a game design perspective, but something else must be given in exchange in my opinion. You are meddling with the game balance too much while improving the game.

Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.

[cmp]

I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done.

You haven't been able to replicate it because it's bullshit - the attack interruption part hasn't been touched in any of the recent patches.

[Grumbs]

Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.

The old cRPG ranged shuffle.

Nerf one thing and buff another. Result = ranged still OP

[Jack1]

In my opinion there are two things that should have changed about this patch:

Ranged stagger should have been gross damage and not net damage.

Stabs should have not have changed in terms of sweet spots but insted being more based off of strength and less of speed. I don't think that an agi stabber should be able to do nearly as much damage as a str stabber.

P.s. My Bec shouldn't rear horses.

[Ronin]

Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.

In my opinion, faster draw speed might not be that necessary. If Cavalry and Infantry class requires some estimation skills, Archer&Crossbowman should require some too (not saying it doesn't, but it's more cruical for classes which rely on hand to hand combat). Otherwise, the surprise effect will be lessened in favor of archers&crossbowmen again, which takes away nearly all the point. But a bit lesser weight for arrows might be good, that extra weight does some difference in close combat.

Again, it's just my opinion.