Nerf 1h cav damage.

[Matim]

The only way I can kill with my +3 arabian with 1 hit is either 0 IF and very light armour on the enemy or strike directly in the head, when enemy has max medium helmet. I have 8PS.
Now think how fucking you have to struggle to get full charge on the enemy without getting stopped by pikes/2haders/death of your horse

Seriously, first see what stats do the most of 1h cav has on the servers. Usually much worse than most of the 2hands. How much does those cav players pay? Usually at least twice as much as 2handers.
Same way you can say that 2hands in best armours are OP

That's why what you should compare other classes to is cav with medium armour on a rouncey. Only then upkeep is similar to the infantry.
And that's why it's all bullshit, longbow kills rouncey with 1 headshot, 2 normal hits.

What is selfish of those who support the idea of nerfing 1h cav is also that you don't care about 1h vs lancer balance (I'm sure that the main reason is just "NERF CAV111")

How does the balance looks now - lancers have less dmg, can fight inf out of their reach though, and have couched attack. 1h cav is always endangered when attacking infantry, still has bigger dmg.
If one says that 2h cav is too weak then just buff it. I'm sure that the idea will loose then most of the supporters.

[Aksei]

just some points missing:

- 2h can outrange 1h
- when dismounted 2h is better than 1h

if you change speed stuff we will see killingmaschines 2h on arabian horse 

[Mr.K.]

39p morningstar ftw. Please no, it can already onehit most guys with body hits and everyone except for Butan with a head hit... 2H longsword on horseback would be 38c while the shorter and worse-on-foot ACS would be 32c. Realism-wise it makes zero sense as well, ACS is as long and heavier - it should deal more damage than a longsword in 1H.

In my opinion the shield could give a slight - maybe 5-10% - penalty on a horse, but otherwise a longsword should deal roughly the same damage _and_ speed as a NCS.

Pure 2H: 20% damage penalty, slight speed buff
Bastard swords: Similar speed to 1H weapons (around 2spd nerf to the base values, 12.5% damage reduction on horse back and another 5-10% if used with a shield.
1h: 5-10% damage reduction with shield on horseback (if this is actually possible to code in to the game)

This would give the following stats for Longsword and ACS:
On horseback with shield: ACS 97spd, 32.4c LS 98spd 31.5c
On horseback w/o shield:  ACS 97spd, 36c LS 98spd 35c
On foot with shield:           ACS 97spd, 36c LS 98spd 35c
On foot without a shield:   ACS 97spd, 36c LS 100spd 40c

[San]

@Mr. K
Please no? Right now, you get the full 41p with morningstar if you use it with or without shield on horseback (morningstar is 2h/1h). Even so, that sounds like a problem with the morningstar itself (or more importantly, bump slashing), since additional artificial nerfs would only hurt the other 2h/1h weapons.

With my proposed #s, 15% off a +3 bardiche, for instance, results in similar damage to what a +3 longsword/katana currently outputs. 12% off a +3 longsword is 35c. That's slightly weaker and with the speed debuff, noticeably slower than the ACS. 5% without a shield is a slight nerf compared to what we have now, but completely matching on foot damage is something I would like to have done away with due to the nature of how cav works. I want to have clear differences in damage between 1h, 2h/1h without shield, and pure 2h classes.

I disagree for having 2h being that weak and with 1h on horseback having a penalty with shield. Those changes would greatly weaken 2h. The 1h should be faster and more versatile, but not as hard-hitting IMO. The way weight works in the game is silly anyways, since most 1hs were increased by 0.5kg a few years back.

@Matim

(click to show/hide)

The only way I can kill with my +3 arabian with 1 hit is either 0 IF and very light armour on the enemy or strike directly in the head, when enemy has max medium helmet. I have 8PS.
Now think how fucking you have to struggle to get full charge on the enemy without getting stopped by pikes/2haders/death of your horse

Seriously, first see what stats do the most of 1h cav has on the servers. Usually much worse than most of the 2hands. How much does those cav players pay? Usually at least twice as much as 2handers.
Same way you can say that 2hands in best armours are OP

I disagree. Even with much lower damage, it's simple to deal massive damage with almost any build as long as you time a good hold. Hold bonus * speed bonus * weapon damage with barely any penalties. If you aren't killing, you aren't holding your swings correctly. Holding too long also vastly decreases your damage.

That's why what you should compare other classes to is cav with medium armour on a rouncey. Only then upkeep is similar to the infantry.
And that's why it's all bullshit, longbow kills rouncey with 1 headshot, 2 normal hits.

What is selfish of those who support the idea of nerfing 1h cav is also that you don't care about 1h vs lancer balance (I'm sure that the main reason is just "NERF CAV111")

I played lancer cav in medium armour on a rouncey for nearly a year and it wasn't bad. Rouncey has similar survivability to the other light horses, maybe even above average. 1h vs lancer is pretty even overall IMO. As a lancer, you have to avoid getting stopped, but you can easily win out on the frontal exchange. 1h can stay defensive and rear the lancer.

How does the balance looks now - lancers have less dmg, can fight inf out of their reach though, and have couched attack. 1h cav is always endangered when attacking infantry, still has bigger dmg.
If one says that 2h cav is too weak then just buff it. I'm sure that the idea will loose then most of the supporters.

2h cav is as strong as it can be already. I think 1h can win out on encounters just from the way you can abuse acceleration and get a stun bump + slash with good timing. If you're mindful of your positioning and enemy composition, endangerment is barely an issue.

@Aksei
I think it's okay for 1h cav to have a slight disadvantage against 2h cav. You can't be too defensive against a 2h cav since they can cleave your horse in 2. Disagree about 1h being worse than 2h on foot.

if you change speed stuff we will see killingmaschines 2h on arabian horse 

That's only for 2h+shield. 2h without shield uses their full speed as far as I know.

[Mr.K.]

@Mr. K
Please no? Right now, you get the full 41p with morningstar if you use it with or without shield on horseback (morningstar is 2h/1h). Even so, that sounds like a problem with the morningstar itself (or more importantly, bump slashing), since additional artificial nerfs would only hurt the other 2h/1h weapons.

I've asked this a couple of times and had a long talk with Tydeus just a few weeks ago on IRC and he claimed that 2H on horseback still gets a malus. My testing showed it gets zero malus, but he claimed it was just randomness and that I need to see the raw damage values to see how it really is. If 2H weapons on horse back get the full damage, that's utterly retarded and should be nerfed immediately. Why on earth would a weapon deal the same damage swung one-handed as it does two-handed. Clearly you'd be able to deal a ton more damage with two hands.

I just don't get why 2H cav and 1H cav should be any different when they use the same exact animations... Unless using a heavier weapon like a big axe for example, but right now those are the ones that are useless and deal similar damage to a longsword with half the reach...

[San]

Some changes to the classes were supposed to be put into effect last patch. I had my doubts after a while and needed to confirm what the damage reductions were currently, so I performed more damage tests. That's where the discrepancy comes from when you heard from Tydeus.

I just don't get why 2H cav and 1H cav should be any different when they use the same exact animations... Unless using a heavier weapon like a big axe for example, but right now those are the ones that are useless and deal similar damage to a longsword with half the reach...

2h on horseback lost its penalty back in 2012 in one of the old patches. Back then, I assumed it was only reduced instead of removed. Gameplay-wise, I think it's necessary to have tradeoffs for versatility to pure damage output, hence the 5% penalty without a shield and 12% penalty with a shield. Agree on the second part.

Let's be honest here, though. In the grand scheme of things, those small damage reductions still allow these classes to deal great damage with speed bonus and holds multiplying damage by so much. My biggest aim is to make "cheap" tactics like swinging away when sitting still/low speed for 1h cav less viable and ease on the 1-shots without making better use of those factors.

[Jarlek]

Some changes to the classes were supposed to be put into effect last patch. I had my doubts after a while and needed to confirm what the damage reductions were currently, so I performed more damage tests. That's where the discrepancy comes from when you heard from Tydeus.
2h on horseback lost its penalty back in 2012 in one of the old patches. Back then, I assumed it was only reduced instead of removed. Gameplay-wise, I think it's necessary to have tradeoffs for versatility to pure damage output, hence the 5% penalty without a shield and 12% penalty with a shield. Agree on the second part.

Let's be honest here, though. In the grand scheme of things, those small damage reductions still allow these classes to deal great damage with speed bonus and holds multiplying damage by so much. My biggest aim is to make "cheap" tactics like swinging away when sitting still/low speed for 1h cav less viable and ease on the 1-shots without making better use of those factors.

Swinging away at low speed/standing still is actually better as 2h cav than 1h cav in my experience. from my experience it's just plain less glances as 2h cav compared to 1h cav.

[MURDERTRON]

Give 2h axes overhead on horseback.

[Rando]

completely agree, i'm tired of always getting 1-shot by people using 1h swords on cav

[Asheram]

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[San]

Bumpslash/stab deals half damage and all horses have no armor at the legs. If you're getting 1shot, they must be strong af or they got a really clean hit on you. (only responding to post-necro posts)

[Telford]

Nerfing 1h cav is a dipshit idea. Play the game more and it's a common sense, empirical conclusion. Lmao.

[Sniger]

thread from 2014, really?

[Nickleback]

They needed rando's constructive criticism back then.

[Asheram]

They needed rando's constructive criticism back then.

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