Nerf 1h cav damage.

[San]

Pure 2h damage was lower. 46 cut weapon was dealing similar/slightly lower damage to the HBS. 1h cav damage was even less, but maintained consistently good damage from speed bonus 80-110 raw attacks (dealing ~30 damage depending on armour) with the occasional lower damage at slower speeds. 2h+shield cav was by far the worst. All of these were tested with 5PS, 170wpf, 141effective and non-loomed weapons, so the damage potential may be quite a bit higher for more optimized builds.

I think bringing 2h/1h and 2h+shield damages closer together and toning down bump+hit damage for all classes while keeping non bump slash damage high would keep the classes strong but make it more balanced. Non bump attacks are easily blockable, while bump attacks would be like crushthrough instead of instant kill attacks. I'm not convinced a straight up damage nerf is the correct option without adjusting the aforementioned aspects first.

[Tzar]

Stop fuckin nerfing things San... OMFG! after all this constant shitstorm of nerfs, they are still people on the dev team suggestion nerfs..

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[San]

I like the power of meaningful choice, Tzar. Making 2h+shield better and pure 2h weapons with +10 damage actually more powerful than 2h/1h weapons makes sense to me. When they all deal so much damage, why not just go to the one with the most utility and almost 1hit anyways? That's my train of thought, which is why I pondered a few of those adjustments. Choosing between whether to use an unblockable bump+slash for medium to high damage or ride-by slash for high-extreme damage also sounds good to me since strategies change and you can weigh out the risk/reward for both the rider and the target.

It's "good enough" as is I guess since both 1h and 2h/1h weapons without shield are great options (contrary to the 2h cav is so weak whining), but I would at least like 2h+shield better on horse and foot.

I notice larger storms from buffs than nerfs (outside of turn rate). Been hearing complaints about stabs nonstop for 7 months so far.

[vipere]

are you going to do something about 1h cav ?

actually, a full plate 1h cav can still kill every single enemy with only one hit.

How is that fair in term of balance ?

[CrazyCracka420]

are you going to do something about 1h cav ?

actually, a full plate 1h cav can still kill every single enemy with only one hit.

How is that fair in term of balance ?

Bullshit.

Your "argument" (lol) means nothing unless you provide more information.  What was the type of horse, and riding skill of rider, how fast was the horse going (full speed?), was the infantry moving to or from or perpendicular to the rider.  What was the power strike of the rider, what was the type of weapon the rider was using?  What was the type of armor the infantry had, how much iron flesh and strength?  Where on his body did the infantry get hit?

IMO melee cavalry ranks like this (in terms of effectiveness):  polearm (lancer), 2h, then 1h. 

[Smoothrich]

Bullshit.

Your "argument" (lol) means nothing unless you provide more information.  What was the type of horse, and riding skill of rider, how fast was the horse going (full speed?), was the infantry moving to or from or perpendicular to the rider.  What was the power strike of the rider, what was the type of weapon the rider was using?  What was the type of armor the infantry had, how much iron flesh and strength?  Where on his body did the infantry get hit?

IMO melee cavalry ranks like this (in terms of effectiveness):  polearm (lancer), 2h, then 1h.

That's bs Huseby, I've never seen you using your 1hand from horseback myself, not sure how much experience you have with that class.

1h and 2h cav do basically the same damage. That means using a shield gives a big advantage. Really damn useful for fucking over other melee cav when colliding, big bubble to escape crap situations, makes it easier to go after ranged players by RMB bumping them on a first pass.

Now I know last time I talked about 2hand damage, San did some testing, but he didn't really post much information except that the various 2hand penalties were messed up. From my experience, its always felt like the Arabian Cavalry Sword does more damage than a HBS on horseback, in fact it feels similar to using a 2hand morningstar. You 1hit kill archers and probably blackbar heavily armored people with ease.

Most other 1hand weapons don't feel nearly as good though. I've always just seen the ACS as an overpowered option for 1hand cav, but nerfing it would prob make it too shitty.

You just barely see 1hand cavalry on NA, but play some EU strat battles or pub servers and they are more popular than even lance cav there last I saw.

[San]

It's a little buggy. I thought 1h cav damage got reduced, but I was wrong.

How it is right now (tested on other horses on duel server):

5PS, ~160 effective wpf in 1h

Pure 2h: Bardiche: 46c
60 raw on foot, 48 raw on horse: 25% reduction??

2h/1h hybrid: Heavy bastard sword: 36c
With shield:
53 raw on foot (10% reduction), 58 raw on horse (no penalty)??
Without shield:
48 raw on foot and on horse (no reduction)

Pure 1h:+3 italian sword: 33c
54 raw on foot and on horse (no reduction)

Pure 2h too weak, glitchiness with 2h/1h split weapons, 1h too strong.

[722_]

is it possible for us to see what damage we do like in your screenshots san or is that something only item balancers can do?

[San]

You need to have rank 4+ admin and use the show names cheat.

Made a proposal a week ago about adjusting damage so pure 2h is stronger, 1h weaker, and 2h/1h is inbetween each of the pure weapons, usable by both 2h and 1h. However, not much voting so far.

[GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER]

the only case you need to see that 2h cav is in no way too weak is to watch any player worth half a turd play 2h morningstar cav

[Jarlek]

It's a little buggy. I thought 1h cav damage got reduced, but I was wrong.

How it is right now (tested on other horses on duel server):

5PS, ~160 effective wpf in 1h

Pure 2h: Bardiche: 46c
60 raw on foot, 48 raw on horse: 25% reduction??

2h/1h hybrid: Heavy bastard sword: 36c
With shield:
53 raw on foot (10% reduction), 58 raw on horse (no penalty)??
Without shield:
48 raw on foot and on horse (no reduction)

Pure 1h:+3 italian sword: 33c
54 raw on foot and on horse (no reduction)

Pure 2h too weak, glitchiness with 2h/1h split weapons, 1h too strong.

wat

Or did you not switch the wpf to 2h when doing the 2h damage test? That would account for the low 2h damage.

[San]

I was using a pure 1hander build. ~31 2h wpf. I was testing damage reductions, so damage/wpf didn't really matter.

[Angellore]

Made a proposal a week ago about adjusting damage so pure 2h is stronger, 1h weaker (...)

2h cav is fine now, buffing it would be bad decision. Most people takes STR build as 2h cav, and believe me - my 8 PS Bardiche build deals slightly more damage than my 6 PS 1h cav Arabian Cav Sword build, which means basically 1 hit kill most people. If you increase damage of 2h cav, I would deal such a damage with 6-7 PS, it would be way too good class.


You should consider decreasing damage of 1h weapons on horseback by 10%, when using shield by additional 5% and when having shield on back by additional 5%, so 1h cav has option to play with two shields (-20% damage), with one shield (-15% damage) or to play without shield at all (-10% damage). Of course % values could be tweaked, it's just an example.

NOTE: Firstly, I wanted to propose more penalty for having shield in hand than on back, but I realised some people would start switching shield to back 1s before attack and taking it back right after swing. This technique would be not only effective and easily abusable, but also not funny for rider. Same penalty for shield in hand and on back seems to be better solution here.

[Kafein]

I think the point of 1h cav is precisely that you can use a shield effectively with it. If you don't want to use a shield the better option should be to go 2h cav.

[San]

What I have so far is this, subject to change. Votes are going pretty bad for it right now, though
The reason why I want to buff pure 2h is because it does less damage than the 2h/1h weapons while being much slower, shorter, and unbalanced. I was also unable to do attacks like overheads.

Proposals: (previous stats on the left, proposal on the right)
Pure 2h: 25% -> 15% reduction
2h/1h wih shield: 0% on horse, 10% on foot -> 12% damage reduction on horseback and 6% on foot. If the speed penalty is high, reduce to 10%, otherwise decrease by only 2-3%. Unsure how the speed penalty witth shield works.
2h/1h without shield: 0% -> 5% penalty on horseback
1h: 0%-> 10% penalty on horseback

Other stuff:

(click to show/hide)

I think that overall, cav needs to rely more on their speed bonus. Slow hits should be punished a bit more.

More incentives to use pure 2h weapons. 2h/1h with shield would be slightly slower with good damage. 1h would need to build up more speed to deal extreme damage. 2h/1h without shield is slightly toned down, but comparatively, it is still very attractive and retains enough power to deal great damage. 2h/1h would have qualities of both pure 2h and 1h while losing out in power and speed.

Edit: For reference on extreme cav damage, you could easily get 100-150 raw with 1h/2h cav right now. The reductions won't be too bad as long as you get high speed hits.

http://imgur.com/a/ft7TZ

+0 heavy bastard sword, 5PS, 141 effective wpf in 2h.

(click to show/hide)

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