Author Topic: Conservation is the key  (Read 2096 times)

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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 02:32:27 pm »
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Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. Practically everyone in any sort of combat situation like what we have in cRPG, would be going through an adrenaline rush. If everyone has it, then essentially no one does.
Please clarify.

While i see there are situations where the game gives me a kick through difficult situations like staggering, it also gives me with the amount of ranged and the way ranged works the impression, that i dont need to expose me to such flawed and rather grieving game mechanics. So while others ask for removing the staggering complettly or nerfing stats of chars, weapons or projectiles, finding a way to improve a flawed game design i see as preferable. Now we can agree to disagree if there would be a flawed mechanic in need of improvement, but i still rather spend my time to find ways to improve game mechanics then get back into the same old same old stats balancing discussions. In that sense i liked the OP suggestion, as it was not going for default nerf of stats, but trying to find a new way to change game dynamics.

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 03:34:21 pm »
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It's going to either feel "gamey", as Grumbs pointed out, or completely pointless. "If everyone has it, then essentially no one does" means that upon entering combat you and your opponent would both receive an adrenaline rush. In this situation, has either of the two received any meaningful benefit over the other? No. If you did something especially gamey like allow them to not get staggered from projectiles, you might as well have just removed stagger from the game, not to mention artificially nerfed ranged.

Giving something to everyone is like giving it to no one. If there are problems with stagger, then fix stagger(you only need 15-25 raw damage for your ranged hit to stagger, this means 99% of hits will stagger. Good luck getting cmp to fix this though), don't add some excessively gamey system just so you can have a reason to implement the secondary effects.
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Offline Arnwald_TheDark

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 07:52:57 pm »
+1
Please clarify.

While i see there are situations where the game gives me a kick through difficult situations like staggering, it also gives me with the amount of ranged and the way ranged works the impression, that i dont need to expose me to such flawed and rather grieving game mechanics. So while others ask for removing the staggering complettly or nerfing stats of chars, weapons or projectiles, finding a way to improve a flawed game design i see as preferable. Now we can agree to disagree if there would be a flawed mechanic in need of improvement, but i still rather spend my time to find ways to improve game mechanics then get back into the same old same old stats balancing discussions. In that sense i liked the OP suggestion, as it was not going for default nerf of stats, but trying to find a new way to change game dynamics.

Wow someone that can appreciate a fresh idea, that is already an improved over other more less constructive posts (looks at Hill).
Anyhow, as some already out, yes ranged could get extramely powerfull with the slowing effect but Kinngrim made a good counter suggestion, yes I disapproved first because you named it an abillity which made think of a skill spec or a button bound thing.

However if it were to be after a kill then it would reward 'stoutness & bravery' thus increasing the pace of game which balances out the feared decrease of the slowing.
Also it would not be a 'everyone has it' thing, since you need that kill first, and you could even make it so that it only works for kills on close proximity not granting stacking 'bloodlust' on ranged.

Furthermore you could rearange stagger on ranged by taking in account that if something is armor piercing it will stagger less, in modern times a soldier shot by a bullet in the shoulder with high armor piercing & little stopping power will have the bullet go through his shoulder from one end to the other but can keep on going, however if you have ammunition with the opposite propperties then he will most likely have a big gaping hole in his shoulder and/or fall on the ground.

What does this have to do with crpg & stagger you may ask, well keeping this in mind you could remove stagger completly from any ranged pierced except from throwing since having a small broomstick hanging out of your body whilst its ripping your muscles appart on the inside will still hurt.

Ranged might complain about their pierce being nerfed, but then again it still ignores armor which is on its own a briljant thing already, and mayhaps make them a little bit cheaper on the repair, furthermore you could buff the stagger on cut arrows with 1sec to keep this forum from being flooded by ranged cries, but I'd would just do it without. (*)

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Yes I have an archer myself, and yes I play it often, and I like playing it. However that won't hinder me in seeing some OP likeness in it.

Offline Arnwald_TheDark

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 07:53:44 pm »
+1
double post

Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 08:03:15 pm »
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It's going to either feel "gamey", as Grumbs pointed out, or completely pointless. "If everyone has it, then essentially no one does" means that upon entering combat you and your opponent would both receive an adrenaline rush.
Only if one has "killed" someone, only for a few seconds he would have the ability to ignore stagger, to f.e. reach the next ranged dude. If you didnt kill someone you are still prone to projectile staggering. That in my view neglects the "everyone has it argument", because by default noone has it

In this situation, has either of the two received any meaningful benefit over the other? No. If you did something especially gamey like allow them to not get staggered from projectiles, you might as well have just removed stagger from the game, not to mention artificially nerfed ranged.
Differenece again is, i dont want to get rid of stagger, i am but looking for a meaningfull way to soften its effects, as with the amount of ranged players at times, it is just no fun as it is, at least not in my book. If then 2 opponents approach each other, one of them just killed another one, and both are being targetted by ranged ... well the dude who doesnt get innterrupted ... has a meaningfull benefit, right?

Giving something to everyone is like giving it to no one. If there are problems with stagger, then fix stagger(you only need 15-25 raw damage for your ranged hit to stagger, this means 99% of hits will stagger. Good luck getting cmp to fix this though), don't add some excessively gamey system just so you can have a reason to implement the secondary effects.
Again the "something to everyone"-argument i see as invalid, as there are circumstances to be met before someone gets the advantage. If it is again about cmp not being able(time or whatever) implementing something then that maybe sad, also but doesnt count as an argument. It is just telling me, that there is no chance to get a meaningful solution either by implementing a new or correcting an old mechanic, right?

@Arnwald
yes that is basicly what i ment by my counter suggestion.


EDIT:
- passiv ability, not activly triggered by mouse press, but by "kill"
- lets narrow it down to 5 to 10 seconds, where it gives immunity to the "projectile stagger effect" for "melee" players
EDIT2:
- i also would agree on the suggestion that this short "projectile immunity" woudlnt work for throwing weapons
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 08:11:29 pm by kinngrimm »
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 08:26:38 pm »
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There are basically two potential routes you can go with the adrenaline thing. You've addressed one concern by stating "but instead we'd do x", but didn't realize that in doing so, you moved straight into area of being "gamey", which is the second concern. So I don't really see this thing having a future in cRPG.
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Offline Arnwald_TheDark

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 08:47:32 pm »
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There are basically two potential routes you can go with the adrenaline thing. You've addressed one concern by stating "but instead we'd do x", but didn't realize that in doing so, you moved straight into area of being "gamey", which is the second concern. So I don't really see this thing having a future in cRPG.

Everything you do in RL has an effect aswell, some instantly some delayed. Everything triggers snowballs, so why would it be 'gamey'?

You kill a man(/woman, yeah womens rights and all, even they are allowed to be killed in combat), and after this you feel a surge of might for having felled a foe.

Offline IR_Kuoin

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 08:53:48 pm »
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Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2014, 08:59:19 pm »
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why don't all of you huge nerds just go play MTG and leave us all alone

Offline Arnwald_TheDark

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2014, 09:05:20 pm »
-1
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Sorry

why don't all of you huge nerds just go play MTG and leave us all alone

If you can't make on topic and constructive post then don't post anything at all, shouting nerd, f'ggot & so on does not help in debate, please go waste your life in other part of the forum.

Thanks in advance

Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2014, 09:07:01 pm »
-1
If you can't make on topic and constructive post then don't post anything at all, shouting nerd, bundle of sticks & so does not help in debate, please go waste your life in other part of the forum.

Thanks in advance

Okay let me rephrase shitbird;

Your idea is over complicated, impractical shit that will never be implemented because it would be pointless, hard to code in this game, and would only serve to frustrate players.

Happy now, asstron? Jesus the fucking nerdery on you people.

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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2014, 09:11:26 pm »
+2
Can't he have an opinion without being insulted? Guy is like making his first thread on the forum and he is downvoted to hell just for having an idea.

I don't agree with the premise but who cares? Sooner they get rid of the + / - thing the better for the community, might as well have people posting ideas rather than hiding behind gifs and one liners
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Offline Arnwald_TheDark

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2014, 09:27:33 pm »
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I had to look carefully in between the un needed insults & childish behaviour, but I think there was an attempt there to join the discusion.

Okay let me rephrase shitbird;

Your idea is over complicated
hard to code in this game
and would only serve to frustrate players.

* What is complicated of the idea to add in health to movement/wpf link and make a counter, for the buffing of ranged due to this, by adding in a ranged stagger nerf by the means of a 'enrage/bloodlust' status? (ty Kinngrim for this nice addition)

* Why would this the health thing be hard to code? It already excists in numerous other mods & thus can almost be directly copy/pasted. The stagger would be indeed harder, but not extremely out of the way of what you already have now with dmg limitations on stagger.

* I'm geussing with players you mean your self mainly, at least thats what I deduct out of your somewhat childish demeanour on the topic. For the more experienced & aged player it would be nothing more then a releaf to see a stop at the brainless charges & have some tactics on the battle field for ones.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2014, 09:40:38 pm »
+1
Everything you do in RL has an effect aswell, some instantly some delayed. Everything triggers snowballs, so why would it be 'gamey'?

You kill a man(/woman, yeah womens rights and all, even they are allowed to be killed in combat), and after this you feel a surge of might for having felled a foe.
Yes, I'm familiar with the term causality. What I don't understand, is how "blood lust" or an "adrenaline rush" is necessary. "Gamey", meaning artificial, forced and not really complimenting any other game mechanics. As far as reduced effectiveness as hp lessens, that's just a way to limit a player's enjoyment in the game. Not only does this limit fun, it negatively affects certain classes far more than others.

It's not something we can just copy and paste into the mod and expect it to work flawlessly, balance would have to be reworked from the ground up with this change in mind. That's too much work for not nearly enough being gained.
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Offline GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER

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Re: Conservation is the key
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2014, 10:20:59 pm »
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It would frustrate players because it's goofy bullshit. It belongs in something like Warhammer, not cRPG.

You are talking about a game where it takes the developers over half a year to fix siege equipment, bugs that give people millions of free currency, invisible weapons, textures that tear, et cetera...

The suggestion of a mechanic that would destroy classes people enjoy, slow down game play even further than it already feels slow in this mod, and require a total rework of game mechanics is just going to be buried.

Overall, your suggestion is entirely impractical for a mod in which the player base is already waning.

Fucking nerd.