Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"

[Tomas]

I should have rephrased that. Every xbow+Shield+1h hybrids I have ever seen in-game did not portray to me any of the qualities of why their build is overall better than other xbow hybrids.

Its not about being better - its about having no weaknesses.  Without the shield a crossbow is at the mercy of the map for cover and if you get caught in the open by a horse archer even the best player is fundamentally screwed.  This forces most crossbows to the edge of the fight, limiting the effectiveness.  I meanwhile am happy to run into the open because I know that if I do get into trouble I can just put my shield up and make my way back to cover.  I can also escape better players this way and simply s-key my way out of trouble whenever I come up against someone I know I can't kill. 

What I'm trying to get at is the shield is more limiting more often than not. You get a few shots off and now you're just a mediocre shielder once someone gets close... It just seems to me that the skill point allocation could be handled better. It also seems easier to shoot other ranged rather than chase them with a shield if you have a crossbow. The wpf difference between a melee+ranged hybrid and a pure melee is larger after the wpf patch and it would take a larger skill difference to come out on top.

I believe the class can be very strong , but I wouldn't classify it as OP or even the best hybrid build. Stats on 1h have been reduced to being extremely close to their old stats in performance. More stab animation tweaks are also in the pipeline (although the extra stuns/delays currently help).

@Tomas
I understand your sentiments, but I disagree that spending 3-5 points in shield and sacrificing a good chunk of your crossbow wpf is an optimal strategy for xbows.

You are thinking like a pure xbow.  I have 160 1H wpf (140 at level 30) as 130 crossbow wpf is enough for me.

When I read this:I just think of opponents that do not know how to utilize their own advantages/ you vastly outskilling them. Fighting with a crossbow+bolts on your back +shield + non-optimal melee build doesn't seem all that great to me. Skill requirements for xbows would be enough of a solution.

You've obviously never seen me fight.  Ask any Fallen and you'll find that "outskilling" is not something I am known for. 

Skill requirements for xbows would be enough of a solution.

What we have now is 4 types of Arbalest player

1) Pure Xbows that are good at melee.  Pros - high accuracy, can melee despite low wpf.  Cons - need to drop the xbow to fight, need cover to reload and move around the map
2) Other pure Xbows.  Pros - high accuracy.  Cons - dead if they get into melee, need cover to reload and move
3) Non shield hybrid.  Pros - can melee.  Cons - need cover to reload and move
4) Shield hybrid.  Pros - can melee/survive.  Cons - none

A skill requirement would kill the hybrids since they would lose their melee ability or become inaccurate with the crossbow.  The pure xbows that can't melee meanwhile would lose their only Pro leaving just the already good players with a decent class to play since they would still be able to maintain decent accuracy.

Its already been pointed out that xbows are one of the key classes for countering cav, especially ranged cav - we do therefore need them.

[Phew]

4) Shield hybrid.  Pros - can melee/survive.  Cons - none

How about Cons:
-Heaviest gear loadout of the crossbow options, limiting mobility
-Most skill investment of the crossbow options; those points in shield would otherwise be used for more agi/WM/ironflesh/etc
-Best weapon option is a 0-slot 1h, whereas a xbowman without a shield can use the longer and much more damaging Langes Messer in 2h Mode (38cut at Masterwork I believe)

Your Option 1) above can have a build like 15/27, which has far more ability to escape harm and dodge projectiles than a guy lugging around a shield.

Throwing+1h+shield has much more synergy than crossbow+shield (I know, I spent the previous year or so as a Huscarl), since you can actually use the shield while throwing AND while using the melee mode of your throwing weapons. You make it sound like crossbowmen can shoot/reload their crosswhile while their shield is raised.

Tomas, I'm confused by your agenda. You state that 1. Your own build is OP but that 2. you don't perform well. Contradictory.

[Grumbs]

Think he means its cheesy and he does better than he aught to

[Phew]

Think he means its cheesy and he does better than he aught to

The historical role of crossbows was a means for rich guys that sucked at fighting to still have a means of killing people in battle. I'd say their role in cRPG matches up well with their historical usage.

[Jarold]

The historical role of crossbows was a means for rich guys that sucked at fighting to still have a means of killing people in battle. I'd say their role in cRPG matches up well with their historical usage.

No, rich guys used plate armor and huge horses so they wouldn't have to worry that much compared to the lower class crossbowmen.

[Taser]

How about Cons:
-Heaviest gear loadout of the crossbow options, limiting mobility
-Most skill investment of the crossbow options; those points in shield would otherwise be used for more agi/WM/ironflesh/etc
-Best weapon option is a 0-slot 1h, whereas a xbowman without a shield can use the longer and much more damaging Langes Messer in 2h Mode (38cut at Masterwork I believe)

Pretty much. A shielder/xbow hybrid that tries to do both at the same time is at a disadvantage vs a pure shielder or xbow or even a hybrid shielder/xbow that is just focusing on one or the other. So I don't see why a shielder/xbow hybrid is such a big deal.

Throwing+1h+shield has much more synergy than crossbow+shield (I know, I spent the previous year or so as a Huscarl), since you can actually use the shield while throwing AND while using the melee mode of your throwing weapons. You make it sound like crossbowmen can shoot/reload their crosswhile while their shield is raised.

Tomas, I'm confused by your agenda. You state that 1. Your own build is OP but that 2. you don't perform well. Contradictory.

Phew making so many good points man.

Throwing + 1h/shield is an excellent combo and in NA, the ravens did a great job of combining the two (as did NH in their day, which was basically ravens anyway). I'd rather go throwing/1h shield than use a 1h/shield with a xbow. Its much more fluid and effective imo.

Its not about being better - its about having no weaknesses.  Without the shield a crossbow is at the mercy of the map for cover and if you get caught in the open by a horse archer even the best player is fundamentally screwed.  This forces most crossbows to the edge of the fight, limiting the effectiveness.  I meanwhile am happy to run into the open because I know that if I do get into trouble I can just put my shield up and make my way back to cover.  I can also escape better players this way and simply s-key my way out of trouble whenever I come up against someone I know I can't kill.

I didn't know that with a shield a crossbowman is protected from range and doesn't need cover while reloading vs without a shield. 

[Angantyr]

You'd have to have shameless class bias to not support this necessary balance suggestion.

[Andswaru]

Force people down onto the weaker missile types via increased upkeep costs, neatly nerfing the effect of massed ranged while still leaving them with an effective build.  It can also be easily revesered later when the level or ranged returns to an acceptable % of players on a server.
Simple yet effective.

[Tomas]

Pretty much. A shielder/xbow hybrid that tries to do both at the same time is at a disadvantage vs a pure shielder or xbow or even a hybrid shielder/xbow that is just focusing on one or the other. So I don't see why a shielder/xbow hybrid is such a big deal.

Just because a pure build is better does not mean the hybrid build has a con.

I don't consider 140 1H wpf, 5PS, 8Ath and 5Shield (@lvl 31) to be disadvantaged enough to be classed as a con.  Yes, its not the strongest but its definitely not weak either.  Likewise, I don't consider 130 xbow wpf to be a con either.

I didn't know that with a shield a crossbowman is protected from range and doesn't need cover while reloading vs without a shield. 

Since we are deliberately misconstruing what other people write, I didn't know that a thrower's shield was active whilst they were aiming either.  Alternatively if it wasn't deliberate and needs explaining here you go......

Xbow runs into open field -> HA comes along -> xbow fires and misses or fails to kill -> HA torments xbow who never makes it back to cover (unless the HA is utterly crap)

I run into open field -> HA comes along -> I fire and miss or fail to kill -> I pull out my shield and simply walk back to cover where i can reload and continue fighting

Throwing + 1h/shield is an excellent combo and in NA, the ravens did a great job of combining the two (as did NH in their day, which was basically ravens anyway). I'd rather go throwing/1h shield than use a 1h/shield with a xbow. Its much more fluid and effective imo.

Throwing isn't comparable - It has a skill associated with it to make a significant enough difference in melee build when using a shield so that it has a con - but throwing doesn't suffer from poor reload times and so the skill is justified in my opinion.  Adding a skill to xbows would definitely unbalance them compared to throwing in particular as they would have similar melee capabilities but still have way slower reload times - another reason not to have an xbow skill although if throwers were more realistically limited with ammo then i guess this point would disappear.

[Taser]

Just because a pure build is better does not mean the hybrid build has a con.

I don't consider 140 1H wpf, 5PS, 8Ath and 5Shield (@lvl 31) to be disadvantaged enough to be classed as a con.  Yes, its not the strongest but its definitely not weak either.  Likewise, I don't consider 130 xbow wpf to be a con either.

The hyrid build you're suggesting is OP is at a disadvantage vs a pure 1h shielder or xbow build or even a copy hybrid build that isn't trying to do both shielder and xbow at the same time.

So again, I don't see why its a big deal. It does alright but in order to do both shielder and xbow you have to get a 0 slot wep and/or 0 slot shield. If you have a problem with xbow/shielder hybrid builds, I would think your problem is with the 0 slot weapons rather than the build itself.

Since we are deliberately misconstruing what other people write, I didn't know that a thrower's shield was active whilst they were aiming either.  Alternatively if it wasn't deliberate and needs explaining here you go......

Xbow runs into open field -> HA comes along -> xbow fires and misses or fails to kill -> HA torments xbow who never makes it back to cover (unless the HA is utterly crap)

I run into open field -> HA comes along -> I fire and miss or fail to kill -> I pull out my shield and simply walk back to cover where i can reload and continue fighting

I was just poking fun at you since you didn't mention that a xbow/shield hybrid still needs cover anyway to reload. So they might be covered if they mess up vs a hx/ha but they still need to get somewhere to reload if they want to do so. So while they'd be protected with the shield, they still have the disadvantage of not being able to reload unless the HA/HX moves on or they find a place the HA/HX cannot access/shoot them.

Plus a pure build might not have missed with their better wpf and more focused gameplay. Always a trade off. If you think the shield addition is too good for the potential additional wpf and etc then.. ok.

Throwing isn't comparable - It has a skill associated with it to make a significant enough difference in melee build when using a shield so that it has a con - but throwing doesn't suffer from poor reload times and so the skill is justified in my opinion.  Adding a skill to xbows would definitely unbalance them compared to throwing in particular as they would have similar melee capabilities but still have way slower reload times - another reason not to have an xbow skill although if throwers were more realistically limited with ammo then i guess this point would disappear.

Are you trying to say that xbows shouldn't have a skill?

A throwing/shield build is fantastic and I've seen very good players use it to great effect. Its an excellent build to get in dirty and its seamless to fight that way vs a xbow/shield build. You throw a couple axes/jarids/etc then pull out your melee weapon as you close in. Its very effective, especially to force people to come to you and fight.

A xbow/shield build isn't as seamless and like I've said xbow/shield hybrid builds are ok but not as effective as doing one or the other even when one is a xbow/shield build.

Plus there should be, imo, a xbow skill that isn't necessary to use xbows but drastically helps when you are a crossbowman. Like a reload skill. If you made xbows take longer to reload but add a skill to shorten the time, you'd see less people using xbows as a backup weapon (maybe they'd still use it as a shotgun weapon though..) and the people who actually focus on using xbows would shine as they would have the reload skill in order to do well.

Obviously there should be something added since xbows do enjoy a special niche as a very good ranged/melee hybrid (shield or no shield, no shield is better imo for a xbow focused build). Doesn't have to be my suggestion or jarold's but something does need to be added. I don't think it should be a requirement like bows but should be very much needed to do well which is why I like a reload skill. However it would require making all xbows reload slower in order to make the reload skill noticeably helpful and useful.

[Phew]

A reloading skill is a good idea, but I have no confidence that the devs are willing or able to do this. They have commented multiple times that most of the skill system is hard-coded.

[Taser]

A reloading skill is a good idea, but I have no confidence that the devs are willing or able to do this. They have commented multiple times that most of the skill system is hard-coded.

Yeah most likely not. Maybe something like it for their own game though.

[Thomek]

A reloading skill is a good idea, but I have no confidence that the devs are willing or able to do this. They have commented multiple times that most of the skill system is hard-coded.

That's what I tried to say on the first page.. Upping the STR requirements on xbows is a fix other than just nerfing the stats of it, and the only one I believe in atm. It also makes sense that you have to be strong/trained well to use a heavy xbow irl.  Oh and give free respecs afterwards to the xbowers.

[Kafein]

The devs/balancers gave the player base a gift (the 0 and 1-requirement shields that are low weight and high armor), but most people have refused this gift. If I had a dollar for every time I shot a 2h hero in the face while he walked up a ladder in siege, despite him having 2 free slots...

Those 0 and 1 slot shields would have shattered instantly and your bolt would still have damaged them.

[Phew]

Those 0 and 1 slot shields would have shattered instantly and your bolt would still have damaged them.

Damage to shields beyond its breaking point doesn't "carry over" to the the player. And any shield over ~20 armor won't be penetrated by bolts.

A +3 Wooden Shield only requires 1 shield skill, weighs only 2.7kg, and will stop at least 2 bolts from an Arbalest, sometimes 3. That's a big enough deterrent that no xbowman is going to waste shots and reloading time on you if there are any other targets available, especially horses.