Crossbow Skill Requirement Suggestion -- "Steady Hands"

[Taser]

Perhaps I was a bit rash. Point is, I think most of these mechanics are hardcoded, and are not going to happen.

Only very simple things can be done at this point and not be completely unlikely to be implemented.

(Simple things such as editing item requirements.)

The community have asked for xbow skills for nearly 4 years. (!)

So sorry to break it to you if you weren't aware. There is nothing wrong in the basic idea. It just won't happen..  But then again, 24 was perhaps a bit extreme since you would want 1h wpf too. 21, is still hybridizable xbow since it just requires wpf, besides many xbowers probably have 18+ strength already for melee purposes.

Maybe. Its just if one was going to do anything, I'd rather it be a skill put in rather than raising item requirements. Its a lame bandaid imo.

But I get where you're coming from. It's a much simpler thing to do to simply raise an item requirement than add a completely new skill, whatever it might be, to weigh upon game mechanics.

EDIT:
Arbalest is very common on EU. Dunno whats up on NA.. I guess you just like to melee more.

FYI, the Arbalest is an extremely powerful weapon. Shoot any target of opportunity and 1 shot lots of people. It breaks the lameness scale. When you get 1shotted, there are no second chances. It's the weapon for people that Hide and Wait. It would still be with my nerf suggestion, just they would have to wait a bit closer to the battle, and they could no longer just run away too!

Ranged as a whole seems to be much more abundant on EU so I think that's an EU problem. NA has its share to be fair but EU seems to be overwhelmed with it. My apologies to you and yours.

We only have a few people that use arb on NA and they use it well. I actually think desire is the last to use it as a dedicated crossbowman now. The few others have moved onto heavy I believe.

But the skill for reloading I think would greatly mitigate this issue if it could be added. Perhaps for MB:G. I think you'd be right that they won't code it in for this mod at this point. Unfortunate but understandable.

[Awea]

It's harder to shoot eagle in Zelda guys...

Sorry.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

It'd be pretty easy to make crossbow wpf tied to a skill since it'd just involve "removing" crossbow wpf from the website/ingame menu and making a skill that determines wpf instead.

The other suggestion of adding a +reload speed skill probably can't be done easily, since agent_set_reload_speed_modifier is a 1.153+ operation.

I recall crossbows being much, much slower in mercenaries, but they also had some sort of mechanic that caused a very long stun from close range.

[urface]

Remove rain and ill put points where ever you want me to.

[Phew]

Before they start adding new skills, how about they fix the skills we already have?
-Riding does practically nothing above the horse's requirement. Should increase mount/dismount speed, reduce rear time, improve whistle, etc.
-Shield above the requirement only increases durability, which is usually superfluous. Should increase lateral coverage against melee, reduce effective shield weight, increase lateral projectile coverage, etc.
-Ironflesh is nice for people with a lot of armor, but practically useless with light armor.

What specifically is the problem with crossbows anyway?
-Hybrid xbowmen are limited by slot requirements (Longsword+hunting xbow isn't exactly an OP combo)
-Dedicated xbowmen have significantly lower "Damage per second" than archers, and in exchange they are better in melee and can kind of kite (except for the reloading part)
-Horse xbow-dunno, I only play siege, but it seems like the best counter to mounted ranged would be hybrid melee to pew-pew their horses.

The recent shield stat buff means even with no skill points in shield, you can stop one arbalest bolt for only 1 slot+2kg (Hide Covered Round Shield), or for only 1 skill point +1 slot +2.7kg you can stop 2 arbalest bolts (Wooden shield). Bolts penetrating shields is basically a thing of the past.

[Tomas]

First some history

In the past the Arbalest was the domain of the highly skilled, complete noobs and myself
 - noobs would use them because they could hit things easily, but then after being tormented by archers and especially HAs (Spleen!!!!) they would give up.
 - highly skilled players would use them because they knew they didn't need the survivability offered by IF or a shield and they had the manual blocking skills to go toe to toe with just a 1Hander or a Mace.
 - I used it because I knew i was useless in melee anyway and was therefore happy taking a shield and the hand axe in order to survive and escape.

0-slot weapons changed all that.
 - suddenly you could not only survive with a shield but you could also do real damage as well!
 - this means there are no drawbacks to xbow/shield classes at all, although I am still at a disadvantage to any equally skilled pure melee player.  On average they probably need 3 less Agility and 2 less WM in order to reach the same melee wpf and mobility as myself (i only have 130 Xbow wpf so have quite high melee wpf).  This translates into either more strength, more IF or more armour with the same mobility.

Does this mean Xbows are OP........no..........but it does make the class unbalanced since it has no significant downsides whilst every other class does (except HX, which has survivability due to being able to move whilst reloading - they should just be removed from the game imo).

The real problem was that 0-slot weapons were added to give archers melee options but they inadvertently and unnecessarily buffed Xbow hybrids as well.

The real solution is to revert 0-slot weapons to 1-slot, limit ammo to 1 quiver per player and then double the amount of arrows in a quiver.

This:
 - maintains the current status quo on bows as it is now (although I think they still need a separate re-balance anyway) with heavy bows having 1 slot spare for a melee weapon and lighter bows having 2 slots spare.
 - nerfs xbow/shield hybrids back to using the hand axe/hammer, giving them a proper drawback again
 - maintains the status quo on xbow/no-shield hybrids/non-hybrids since they still have the drawback of lacking survivability
 - means there's no need for any skills or a change in requirements (although I wouldn't be against an additional wpf requirement on them to stop them being spammed in Strat Castle defenses.  Say 25 wpf per level of xbow).
 - rightly buffs Tenne with more ammo but he is too manly an archer to use them anyway ;)

[San]

I've never seen many xbow+shield+1h hybrids in-game, so what makes the shield so great on an xbow hybrid?

[Phew]

The real solution is to revert 0-slot weapons to 1-slot, limit ammo to 1 quiver per player and then double the amount of arrows in a quiver.[/b]

 - maintains the status quo on xbow/no-shield hybrids/non-hybrids since they still have the drawback of lacking survivability

I'm one of these 0-slot 1h/shield/2-slot xbow hybrids you are talking about, and I'm actually surprised that you think my "class" is the primary problem with xbows. I can't even think of another player on NA 2 with this loadout (maybe Taser uses a 0-slot 1h now, haven't seen him on NA 2 in ages).

I only equip my Heavy Xbow during my first life on siege defense (so roughly 10% of the time overall), because the huge weight penalty of xbow+bolts would be too much of a hindrance while attacking or defending later in the round. I also drop my xbow+bolts before engaging in melee (10 kg!). If they instituted the change you proposed, when I felt like using my xbow I'd just bring the 0-slot buckler instead of my normal shield, or I just wouldn't bring a shield when using the crossbow. Bringing a Hand Axe or Hammer or whatever wouldn't even be a consideration.

It's not like shield+crossbow provides any real synergy (like throwing+shield or cavalry+shield do), other than the occasional projectile that hits the shield on my back. It's uncommon because shield+xbow+bolts weighs nearly as much as plate armor.

[Taser]

I'm one of these 0-slot 1h/shield/2-slot xbow hybrids you are talking about, and I'm actually surprised that you think my "class" is the primary problem with xbows. I can't even think of another player on NA 2 with this loadout (maybe Taser uses a 0-slot 1h now, haven't seen him on NA 2 in ages).

I only equip my Heavy Xbow during my first life on siege defense (so roughly 10% of the time overall), because the huge weight penalty of xbow+bolts would be too much of a hindrance while attacking or defending later in the round. I also drop my xbow+bolts before engaging in melee (10 kg!). If they instituted the change you proposed, when I felt like using my xbow I'd just bring the 0-slot buckler instead of my normal shield, or I just wouldn't bring a shield when using the crossbow. Bringing a Hand Axe or Hammer or whatever wouldn't even be a consideration.

It's not like shield+crossbow provides any real synergy (like throwing+shield or cavalry+shield do), other than the occasional projectile that hits the shield on my back. It's uncommon because shield+xbow+bolts weighs nearly as much as plate armor.

This. I don't see 1h/shield + xbow. Phew uses it sometimes but like he mentions its pretty rare and it really slows you down which takes away any ability to kite plus it sucks for melee as well since footwork is terrible with the added weight.

I use my military cleaver and arb + a stack of bolts if I use my crossbow. I wouldn't put the two together even with the 1 slot xbows. If I'm using my shield (which is a 2 slot anyway, board shield ftw, so I wouldn't have the room), I'm not using a xbow. No 0 slot weapons for me when I go xbow.

I will admit its an awesome hybrid (shielder with xbow wpf) but its not one of those hybrids I think works effectively at the same time. But perhaps with a 0 slot weapon or shield, one could do that. I guess. But I don't think its a problem to be worried about.

[Tomas]

This. I don't see 1h/shield + xbow. Phew uses it sometimes but like he mentions its pretty rare and it really slows you down which takes away any ability to kite plus it sucks for melee as well since footwork is terrible with the added weight.

The lack of Xbow/shield hybrids on NA1 is just one of those unpredictable things.  Just like HX/HA/HT or NA's Longsword users.  In fact there aren't too many xbow/shields at the moment on EU1 either but balance should never be about popularity like it seems to be at the moment. 

Just because something is popular does not make it OP and at no point have I said that pure Xbow users or even Xbow/non-shield hybrids are OP.  This is why I deliberately came up with a solution that maintains their current position.  This isn't a "there's too many of them - plz nerf" suggestion - it is an opinion that my own xbow/shield class is a little unbalanced compared to other xbow classes due to the lack of drawbacks and a suggestion to bring them back into line.

On EU 1 last night there were around 6-8 Arbalest users online so not that many in total for a server with 80+ on it at the time.  The split between shield and non-shield was roughly 40/60 towards non-shield users however at the end of the round it was the same 4 of us that were alive time and time again which was myself, Farewell, Massassin and Macbeth_Pliskin_the_Cat (or whatever his name is).  Of those only Massassin doesn't use a shield and he is ridiculously good at melee.  The rest of us are average to good melee players at best (no offense intended) but we've been elevated to the top of score boards because we survive.  Take us away and it will just be the likes of Massassin, DaveUKR and Segd at the top again on EU which is fair enough imo since they are highly skilled players.

Finally, for the record I've never struggled to outrun anybody except Ninjas and Kinngrimm on EU1 and I usually use:
 - Arbalest
 - Steel Bolts
 - Short Arming Sword
 - Heavy Round Shield
 - Mail Shirt with fur
 - Red Wisbys
 - Barbutte
 - Rus Cav Boots

I don't drop the xbow to fight either as doing so delays me running away again if I do kill my enemy in melee or an ally comes to help.  Yes there's a noticeable difference if i do drop the xbow or lower my armour level.  But its not necessary to do this to stay ahead of the vast majority of melee players in terms of agility/movement/footwork.

[Grumbs]

I've never seen many xbow+shield+1h hybrids in-game, so what makes the shield so great on an xbow hybrid?

A 1 hander with some WPF and 5 or 6 PS with some agi is all you need to do well in melee. One handers were way over buffed and you have these 0 slot ones now too (they were good before the 1 hand buff patch even). Then add that you can have as much armour as you want, add a shield if you want, add the xbow and you have a class that is too good in too many areas. If you want good ranged why should you have a decent shield and melee capability at the same time?

[Phew]

A 1 hander with some WPF and 5 or 6 PS with some agi is all you need to do well in melee. One handers were way over buffed and you have these 0 slot ones now too (they were good before the 1 hand buff patch even). Then add that you can have as much armour as you want, add a shield if you want, add the xbow and you have a class that is too good in too many areas. If you want good ranged why should you have a decent shield and melee capability at the same time?

If you are carrying a crossbow+bolts+shield and wearing medium armor, that's the weight equivalent of wearing full plate armor. Full plate 1h users are comically easy to fight (just backpedal and kick during your attack).

The Hide Covered Round Shield costs 420g, weighs 2kg, has no skill requirement, uses 1 slot, and will deter almost any crossbowman from shooting you (since the bolt will no longer penetrate thanks to new shield armor values). Sure, an arbalest will break the shield in one shot, but then he has to spend forever reloading, so he'd rather shoot someone without a shield.

The devs have given us the tools to counter nearly any class. If you choose not to use them, don't cry for nerfs. Especially since the class people apparently want to nerf (melee+xbow hybrids) happens to be the counter to mounted ranged, one of the most annoying classes.

[Grumbs]

Any sane xbow user will drop his xbow when he is forced into a melee fight so the weight is moot.

Shield is not a counter to ranged. Its a defensive ability. A counter to ranged is taking some ranged ability of your own to shoot other ranged with. The way shields counter ranged is to allow you to get into melee range. Then you can fight melee vs melee which is the same for a xbower as a normal melee guy

[San]

I should have rephrased that. Every xbow+Shield+1h hybrids I have ever seen in-game did not portray to me any of the qualities of why their build is overall better than other xbow hybrids.

@Grumbs

What I'm trying to get at is the shield is more limiting more often than not. You get a few shots off and now you're just a mediocre shielder once someone gets close... It just seems to me that the skill point allocation could be handled better. It also seems easier to shoot other ranged rather than chase them with a shield if you have a crossbow. The wpf difference between a melee+ranged hybrid and a pure melee is larger after the wpf patch and it would take a larger skill difference to come out on top.

I believe the class can be very strong , but I wouldn't classify it as OP or even the best hybrid build. Stats on 1h have been reduced to being extremely close to their old stats in performance. More stab animation tweaks are also in the pipeline (although the extra stuns/delays currently help).

@Tomas
I understand your sentiments, but I disagree that spending 3-5 points in shield and sacrificing a good chunk of your crossbow wpf is an optimal strategy for xbows.

When I read this:

I don't drop the xbow to fight either as doing so delays me running away again if I do kill my enemy in melee or an ally comes to help.  Yes there's a noticeable difference if i do drop the xbow or lower my armour level.  But its not necessary to do this to stay ahead of the vast majority of melee players in terms of agility/movement/footwork.

I just think of opponents that do not know how to utilize their own advantages/ you vastly outskilling them. Fighting with a crossbow+bolts on your back +shield + non-optimal melee build doesn't seem all that great to me. Skill requirements for xbows would be enough of a solution.

[Phew]

Shield is not a counter to ranged. Its a defensive ability.

Carrying a shield makes you a lower-priority target for ranged players (especially crossbowmen, since it takes them so long to reload), so they won't bother shooting at your frontal arc unless there are no other options. Crossbows are popular because there are so many idiots that run around with free slots yet no shield, so there are lots of easy targets. I know I don't bring my xbow on siege D when the opposing team is heavy on shields (I bring an axe sidearm instead).

The devs/balancers gave the player base a gift (the 0 and 1-requirement shields that are low weight and high armor), but most people have refused this gift. If I had a dollar for every time I shot a 2h hero in the face while he walked up a ladder in siege, despite him having 2 free slots...