Author Topic: Upkeep consequence : remove items  (Read 4528 times)

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Offline Xav13

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Upkeep consequence : remove items
« on: January 07, 2011, 06:48:51 pm »
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Hello,

I have been playing this game since a few months. At the beginning the dream of all new player is to become like of one of those guys with black armors etc.. Now that I've reached this goal the patch is released...
Overall the patch is good BUT :
The upkeep is not perfect. I don't know if you guys have done any simulations but it seems that some of the high-end items available cannot be repaired if used at each round. The expectancy of earned gold - the expectancy of upkeep cost is < 0. So why don't you just remove those items ?

What is the aim ? make old players playing 10 rounds naked and then playing 5 rounds as a knight ? Wow that is very funny.
How players like the_finn can continue to play this game? As long as the upkeep cost is independant from the skill of the player that will matter.

I'll stop playing this game until something is done about that.


edit : I've seen some people saying that upkeep is now too low. It can be if you are lucky and win 20 rounds in a row. That never happened to me. Maybe reduce the multiplier at a maximum of 3 could be the solution.
Otherwise CRPG was one the greatest mod I've ever seen.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 06:58:21 pm by Xav13 »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 07:03:09 pm »
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For low and medium tier equipment it's probably fine, but for high tier it's definitely too low. I am still seeing armoured horses and plate. This can't be (with this system).
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Xav13

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 07:05:34 pm »
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What is too low ? income or upkeep cost :-) ? If the aim of the patch is to remove armoured horses and plate players, why don't just remove the items from the game?

Offline Mr_Moe

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 07:12:52 pm »
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As far as I know theres still no upkeep for horses. I didnt experience it after the hotfix. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if there was upkeep for plated chargers there wouldnt be any

Offline Umbre

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 07:46:37 pm »
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I also lost a lot of money with the patch because of that.

However, what I don't understand is that the break chance is at 4% and the repair cost at 5%. So I would say that on the long term, in average we should lost around 0.04*0.05=0.002 --> 0.2% of the total cost of our equipment each round.

If we also consider that in average, we win 50% of the party we play, we could say that the average earning is of :
100 gold (with several wins in a row sometime it should be something like that) * the number of minute, so lets say 3 minutes per party, so we could consider that we win 300 gold per party.

So we could calculate the total amount of equipment we could wear that will be compensate by the earning. It will be 300/0.002= 150 000 gold

If my calculation are right (I hope so^^) on the long term, we should be able to were for 150 000 gold of equipment without losing or wining money on long term.

However, I played yesterday for like an hour, with 40 000gold of equipment in total and I was lucky to make 15 victory in a row and I still lose money... or i should have won (200*3 - 40 000*0.002)*15= 7 800 gold.

Of course I now that we can be unlucky, but I played during maybe 5 or 6 hours then and I always lost money, whereas with my equipment I should have won money easily (40 000 is a lot smaller than 150 000)


So I think that the patch is a good thing, and the ratio as given (4% chance to break and 5%cost) are good, but I have the fealing that these are not the number really applied in the game.

I do not have made the calculation, but it seems to me that the 5% cost to repair is good, but the 4% chance to break seems to be clearly wrong to me (it seems to be at 20% or 30%)

Can anyone explain me if I am wrong or if you have an explaination about my observation??

Offline Xav13

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 08:19:22 pm »
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I would have liked horse to be without upkeep but here is a screen of my account. My desert horse cost something. Also I could see that in the game because he was running like a poney.

http://img401.imageshack.us/i/repairz.png/

I agree with the calculations of Umbre

It seems that the rate is more like 20% instead of 4%

Taking the same figures, it would be :
20% * 5% (break chance rate * repair cost) = 1% (each round cost 1% of your equipment price)

Then consider that the average gold/minute is something like 50-100gold (being pessimistic) and the average length of a round can be between 3-5 minutes.
Case 50 gold  3 minutes = 50*3=150; 150/1%= 15,000
Case 50 golds 5 minutes = 50*5=250; 250/1%= 25,000
Case 100 golds 3 minutes = 100*3=300; 300/1%=30,000
Case 100 golds 5 minutes = 100*5=500; 500/1%=50,000

Well, in all this cases, with the latest stuff available in the game, you cannot win money, you play to lose money .. Maybe some people with more than 40k of stuff could add their testimony to ours? My stuff costs about 46k without the 13k of the desert horse and I am clearly losing money
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:29:00 pm by Xav13 »

Offline Radix

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 01:54:03 am »
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There is something wrong definitely. I break 2 items every round, and when I finally made 14 str to wear my plate, first I paid 1200 to repair it only to break it permanently in the next round. X-bow is breaking constantly what costs me 400 gold. It is definitely wrong. so with the best luck I am making 800 gold per round and losing around 600 if IM running naked only with x bow,sword, gloves and boots.

Someone said to me to stop crying and wear lighter armor, so I'm asking whats the point to keep plates?? I worked for the plate and want to be able to upkeep it.

Offline RandomDude

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 03:38:01 am »
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i used full hvy armour after .201 and i had x5 multiplier in siege for quite a long run and i made money

since that time tho i've lost 15k at least and there doesnt seem much i can do about it other than wear weaker gear

Offline Xav13

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 10:08:56 am »
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Hi my friends,

chadz does not want his game to be a grinding game. You can reach your 20k gold stuff (above this limit you ll lose money)  and lvl 25in 2days now. In 2 days everybody is the same. So why play this mod ? It is as good to play Native, there are more servers. This is sad :'(
Take a look at this posts :
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153246.0.html
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153242.0.html

Offline SgtAlex86

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 10:21:14 am »
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u can use superior gear just not EVERY ROUND use em when it matters  :rolleyes:
although with current system thers no real reward on winning exept warm and fuzzy feeling  :?

Offline Siboire

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 10:29:16 am »
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Hi my friends,

chadz does not want his game to be a grinding game. You can reach your 20k gold stuff (above this limit you ll lose money)  and lvl 25in 2days now. In 2 days everybody is the same. So why play this mod ? It is as good to play Native, there are more servers. This is sad :'(
Take a look at this posts :
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153246.0.html
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153242.0.html

Not everybody will be the same O.o'' ok maybe a lot more ppl will be around lvl 25-30 but the main idea of cRPG is the customization of your character. You can make throwers, xbowers, archer, HA, cav, 1-hander, etc... and hybrids so I guess the mod does it's job cuz it still lets you make your own character.

But for the upkeep, it's a dice rolled at every xp/gold gain (every minute or so) so at the end of the round, if an item broke during one of the dice rolls, you have to repair. But even with a 4% chance per minute it is indeed really strange, almost every round I have like 2-3 items breaking and rounds are 3-5 minutes so that's only 3-5 rolls of a 4% chance to "score" a breaking...

Offline Rhaelys

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 12:15:32 pm »
+1
Hi my friends,

chadz does not want his game to be a grinding game. You can reach your 20k gold stuff (above this limit you ll lose money)  and lvl 25in 2days now. In 2 days everybody is the same. So why play this mod ? It is as good to play Native, there are more servers. This is sad :'(
Take a look at this posts :
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153246.0.html
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,153242.0.html

The break-even point for gold income/upkeep is supposedly 48,500 gold worth of equipment. I personally haven't tested this, but just playing around with about 34k worth of equipment, I was easily able to maintain my gear with no gold loss.
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Offline LordSnow

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 12:26:43 pm »
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For low and medium tier equipment it's probably fine, but for high tier it's definitely too low. I am still seeing armoured horses and plate. This can't be (with this system).

stupid boy , the aim is not to remove plate! Plate is a part of a game , when you plat plate you scrifice speed, dmg, etc..for a better protection. For me it's too costy to being in plate now, PLATE IS JUST A CLASS AND A WAY TO PLAY, NOT MORE EASY THAN AGISTACK MAIL GUYS (or ninja or munted archer or..) . Plated charger is different, it's an abberation.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 12:33:31 pm by LordSnow »
Damn. It's snowing again.

Offline priest

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 12:32:54 pm »
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During your leveling process build up a bank account.  Buy your stuff, don't immediately use it, play your classes strengths and be smart about it to get your kills and have fun, even as a peasant.  This eliminates the grind because even as a peasant you can get kills.

At around lvl 22 using this tactic with my medium cav lancer I am able to use a full set of the armor I want to, my courser, long great lance, a war spear, and a shield, twice.  I fluctuate around the same amount of bank roll i have since I began using it.  Sometimes I lose more, sometimes i gain way past the amount. 

Just because using math you "bleed" money overtime doesn't always translate to going bankrupt in game.  The upkeep system was built to MAKE the heaviest armors and most expensive gear in the game become a money pit, it was the whole point.  Medium to heavy is still quite usable in a permanent fashion, and with a bankroll built up over an hour or two of heavy play it works out just fine.  Even if your math shows that you will be losing money over time rather than gaining it, so what?  Who ever said that you should ALWAYS be moving up in money once you reach the top tier armors and other items?  There are several people in servers who are actually complaining because they have all this gold now and nothing to use it on.  Well, use it on top tier items and have some fun!

FUN people, that is the bottom line.  PLAY THE GAME TO HAVE FUN.  Stab people, maul, maim, make them your bitch.  Have some lulz doing it and enjoy your playtime rather than grind until your eyes bleed.  If reaching that next level, grinding your heart out to gain every little bit of an advantage over your enemy, and sleeping for only 2 hours a night while surviving on hot pockets and top ramen is your cup of tea, well, then you're playing the wrong game.  Might I suggest World of Warcraft or some other generic boring grindy MMO.

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Re: Upkeep consequence : remove items
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 12:50:06 pm »
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To be honest, with the softcap for lvl 30 going above it seems more than a grind for me. Not to speak that at the moment there are no options to retire, so what to do? I hit lvl 30, have qutie enough money so i can run around in full plate, when i feel to (even tho i wear lighter armor to be faster :P), now i got like 3,8 million XP to next lvl, i cannot retire and i do not want to make another char, as he wouldnt have any items/money.

Anyways, what i wanted to say, keep remembering the 4% break chance is on EVERY item u got on urself, so basically u go with like 32percents (4pcs armor, 4pcs weaponry lets say) to break something. At least i think so, there has been many rounds i didnt have to repair anything, but then repairing 3-4 items in one round was getting quite costly :) Still, manageable