Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots

[Leshma]

What about draw speed?

From my experience, being precise is a something you learn by playing. Archers need wpf and agility stat to improve draw speed. And of course, damage.

If you ask me, longbow draw speed is poor with ~150 wpf.

[Hirlok]

What about draw speed?

From my experience, being precise is a something you learn by playing. Archers need wpf and agility stat to improve draw speed. And of course, damage.

If you ask me, longbow draw speed is poor with ~150 wpf.

WPF is important for being accurate as well. I usually go for sniping / long distance shots, and do not feel comfortable with less than 180 WPF with the longbow. And of course the drawspeed is affected quite a bit as well - with mw longbow and high wpf you sometimes even have a chance against one of those submachineguns if they have little WPF (bow sidearm melee trolls ;-) )

[Tydeus]

As my archer is 18/18, it uses either a Long Bow or a Horn bow.

[Kafein]

and leave your team to be decimated. What a good strategy.

It's a checkmate. Whoever chases you is also leaving his team to be decimated, and you don't have to run if nobody chases you. Moreover, melee takes more time to get back into combat than ranged.



The problem I see with archery internally is that if you get a slightly agi oriented build with a light bow and a few PD over requirement, you get all the pros and none of the cons. You get more accuracy, more missile speed, more fire rate, faster draw speed and longer accurate hold. All this compounds in the fact that even the hardest targets you encounter in usual play are quite easy to hit. It's hardly possible to miss the easiest type of targets (say, shieldless inf trying to get to you by dodging), because at short distances arrows travel so fast it's basically a hitscan, and you can hold your aim for so long, dodgers cannot use timing against you.

[Leshma]

After doing some testing with Hornbow and Arrows on DTV, I must say that difference between 160 and 184 wpf is quite massive. Draw speed has improved few times, accuracy is much higher and damage also. It's practically submachine gun build you're mentioning. It is necessary because I use Arrows and not Bodkins so headshot is usually only way to kill higher level bots.

Haven't tested Longbow yet, but I'll sure try to see how it goes. With Longbow and 184 wpf I expect similar draw speed as Hornbow at 160 wpf.

@Tydeus
That's not competitive build and you know it. There is no reason to put 100 wpf in melee, other than reducing repair chance. Yes swing speed is much better and so is damage, but who cares when archers rarely get to fight in melee. Putting those 24 points in archery means a lot, much more than wasting them in melee proficiency.

If you want to change behaviour of archers, you need to allow higher armour which will slow them down (less kiting) and give them free melee wpf and reduce archery wpf a bit. Kiting, pure archers will still be there but new breed of melee archers will arise.

But if you keep it this way, only sensible choice will be pure archer.

[Tydeus]

@Tydeus
That's not competitive build and you know it. There is no reason to put 100 wpf in melee, other than reducing repair chance. Yes swing speed is much better and so is damage, but who cares when archers rarely get to fight in melee. Putting those 24 points in archery means a lot, much more than wasting them in melee proficiency.

I get 80 wpf in 1h and do fine. To be fair though, I'm not exactly shit in melee.

[Leshma]

Of course. I'm saying one thing, you hear what you want to hear. Guess it's contagious, hanging out with Paul can do that to a man.

You balancers are simple creatures. You were on EU1 tonight, witnessed what ranged (archers) can do on low pop server and now you're devising a plan how to nerf them (but not too much, because you don't want players to quit). God forbid to actually take any buff into consideration, even if it involves nerf of their ranged ability.

[Kafein]

If you want to push archers towards melee without a stick, your carrot better be very, very large. And by that I mean pure archers would probably start standing their ground only if they had better melee builds than pure melee.

The utility of high wpf for ranged, but mostly for archers, should be the same as that of melee. I don't think 120wpf archery should be that "bad", in the sense that 150wpf archery is much better when it really should not.

[Strudog]

Once again LEshma stop trying to balance ranged, go and play 10 gens and then i will accept your point, that 2nd battle archer build is horrible btw

[Ronin]

It's a checkmate. Whoever chases you is also leaving his team to be decimated, and you don't have to run if nobody chases you. Moreover, melee takes more time to get back into combat than ranged.

What if they decide to not to chase you but attack your mates while you reload your crossbow? Maybe I have spoken wrongly, it might be a viable strategy to run away like a chicken but it is just against my honor code to play like that. I value teamwork above all else. Which strategy should be promoted. Running like a chicken or doing teamwork?

Honestly, crossbowery is rather fine at the moment.

[Leshma]

Once again LEshma stop trying to balance ranged, go and play 10 gens and then i will accept your point, that 2nd battle archer build is horrible btw

I know it's bad build, that is why I posted it. To make it better than typical fairy build you prefer. If you weren't min-maxing bastard as you are, you might take 15/27 full archer in consideration. But we both know HA is better atm so why bother...

Just wanted to point out that melee is waste of points for archers. Best is to aim for 15/30 or 18/27 at level 34/35 (Steve's build). But of course, what I've got is typical dev knows best answer:

Dunno what's the problem there, I've got level 23 archer 12/15 and I use regular Bow and regular Arrows and do fine. Skill up, nerd.

or

Xbow is balanced and fine. I've just had a chat with Jacko and Fasader and they both agree.

[Kafein]

Once again LEshma stop trying to balance ranged, go and play 10 gens and then i will accept your point

No, I don't think you would. That's just an excuse.

What if they decide to not to chase you but attack your mates while you reload your crossbow? Maybe I have spoken wrongly, it might be a viable strategy to run away like a chicken but it is just against my honor code to play like that. I value teamwork above all else. Which strategy should be promoted. Running like a chicken or doing teamwork?

Honestly, crossbowery is rather fine at the moment.

Running away is precisely doing teamwork. You are saving your own life while putting pressure on the enemy.

[Phantasmal]

Running away is precisely doing teamwork. You are saving your own life while putting pressure on the enemy.

Not sure if sarcasm, but this is actually true. When you run, 1-2 people are bound to chase you as well. At the end of the round (6v6), kiting those 1-2 enemies can become quite useful in drawing enemies away from the group in the last clash to win the round. The problem is, it is advantageous to run in the majority of scenarios when playing ranged and there is not much incentive to stand and fight (and there will be no changes to make it more favorable without being game breaking).

[Ronin]

What if they decide not to chase you but attack your mates while you reload your crossbow? Maybe I have spoken wrongly, it might be a viable strategy to run away like a chicken but it is just against my honor code to play like that. I value teamwork above all else. Which strategy should be promoted. Running like a chicken or doing teamwork?

5v5, crossbowmen runs away and begins to reload his arbalest --> 4v5. Who will win?

At the moment, I draw my sword and help my teammates. It worked better to fight with them so far. If the enemy is going to outnumber us all anyway, it is better for everyone to run.

[Phantasmal]

Then you just cock an arrow or slam a bolt in your crossbow and harass him or his teammates while they run to the fight. Reloading will usually draw them back to you. If not snipe one of the enemy as they enter the fray.