Author Topic: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots  (Read 3252 times)

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Offline Leshma

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Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« on: December 22, 2013, 04:07:45 am »
-6
I'll keep it short as possible but quite data heavy. First let's start with some level 31 heavy ranged builds (will be using cRPG Character Builder).

Current cRPG:

Arbalester Level 31
STR 15
AGI 24
HP 60
5 IF/PS
8 ATH/WM
160 Crossbow wpf
100 2h/1h wpf





Longbowman Level 31
STR 18
AGI 21
HP 53-65
6 IF or PS
7 ATH/WM
170 Archery wpf
1 2h/1h wpf





Battle Archer Level 31
STR 18
AGI 21
HP 53
6 PS
7 ATH/WM
142 Archery wpf
100 1h wpf





Jarid Thrower Level 31
STR 18
AGI 21
HP 53
6 PS/PT
7 ATH/WM
125 1h/2h/Pole wpf
122 Throwing wpf





Mounted Xbow Level 31
STR 7
AGI 30
HP 42-46
1 or 5 Shield
2 IF or PS or both
5 HA
10 Riding/WM
210 Crossbow lolwpf
1 2h/1h wpf





Horse Archer Level 31
STR 15
AGI 24
HP 50-53
1 IF or PS
4 HA
5 Archery
8 Riding/WM
184 Archery wpf
1 1h wpf






As you can see, there is no ranged thrower or horse thrower. Reason is cost of such build which makes it extremely rare choice. You will bleed gold and bleed hard if you choose that path so I decided to skip it. It's more of a lulz build than anything else, simply because of epic upkeep.

Back to footman builds. Arbalester has 8 ATH, therefore is faster than both archery and throwing builds with same armor, ranged gear not taken into account. When we put ranged weapons in their hands it looks like this:
  • Arbalester can equip Arbalest and one or even two stacks of bolts, depends on melee weapon preference. That is combined weight of 10.3-16.3 kg (Arbalest is 4.3 kg + 1/2x Steel Bolts which is 6 or 12 kg)
  • Longbowman can equip Longbow and one or two stacks of Arrows. That gives us combined weight of 14-24 kg (Longbow is 4 kg + 1/2x Arrows which is 10 or 20 kg)
  • Thrower can equip four stack of Jarids or three stack and melee weapon of choice. That gives us combined weight of 14-16 kg (3/4x Jarids is 12-16 kg + Melee weapon or no melee weapon, if melee weapon than let's say 2 kg on average)
After they equip weapons, it's fairly obvious that Arbalester is moving much faster. Difference of one athletics plus massive difference in weight. None of this is relevant for mounted builds, cause horses don't give a fuck.

Now let's look a bit at damage values and number of projectiles to spare. I'll use Masterworked gear as norm.
  • Arbalester using MW Steel Bolts deals whooping 100 pierce damage. With 160 wpf he's quite accurate, let's say it's enough for most xbowmen to snipe from quite long distance while being very accurate. They can even use decent armor and have high armor rating. Almost forgot to mention melee ability which is quite decent compared to archers and on par with throwers. Arbalester, depending on choice of gear can have up to 26 projectiles, but 13 is enough because of class nature (longer reload, higher accuracy, reach advantage).
  • Longbowman using MW Bodkin Arrows deals 35 pierce damage, but at much higher rate than Arbalester. Let's say dps is somewhat the same because dedicated Arbalester can reload his xbow for same time it takes Level 31 Longbow build to aim and shoot three times. Having 170 wpf is decent for Longbow but nowhere near the same as having 160 wpf for Arbalest. Completely different league of accuracy and draw/reload speed for said weapons. Arbalest reach it's peak potential somewhere around 160-170 wpf while not even 200 wpf is peak potential of Longbow. Melee ability is poor because of lack of wpf to spare, but in case of Battle Archer is decent. There is one problem however, Battle Archer using Longbow is quite poor ranger, very slow draw speed and poor damage. Archer can have between 20 and 40 arrows to spare which is quite a lot in both cases, therefore archers spam projectiles mindlessly. But some are forced because of reduced accuracy due to lack of wpf.
  • Thrower using MW Jarids deals moderate 44 pierce damage. Accuracy is poor and only possible to shoot at short distances. Number of projectiles is very limited and using weapon rack or scavenging ammo is neccesary. Can use between 9 and 12 projectiles per round. Melee ability is quite decent but still not as good as arbalester's melee ability cause of footwork advantage arbalester has over both thrower and archer.

Ranged builds, both archery and xbow are very good. On horse higher firing rate of archery gets completely new dimension so I'll say that HA is stronger than HX even tho by looking at stats someone could get wrong impression that HX is actually better choice. Both are quite OP and annoying builds that are counter to each other but have very few real counters besides that. Needs nerf both, sorry horse ranged lovers.

* * *

Introduction is over. Time to go to programme Back to the Roots. It involves:
  • Changes to xbow class and weapons. First, some sort of stat depency for xbowmen. I've mentioned something similar to lack of wpf for other ranged classes. Depending on type of Crossbow there should be lower limit of wpf needed to actually perform well. It should be set quite high so that xbowmen have very few wpf left for melee proficiency. Also raise STR requirement for all Xbows in this order: Hunting 9 STR, Light 12 STR, Crossbow 15, Heavy Crossbow 17 SRT, Arbalest 18 STR. Also make Arbalest 3 slot so that dedicated Arbalesters can use only 13 projectiles per round and one handed zero slot weapon of choice.
  • Implement synergy for ranged classes. Based on points put in ranged proficiency, ranged players will get free wpf in 3 melee proficiencies. Up to 80 melee wpf if put amount of ranged wpf equal to 8 WM. Scale accordingly to higher and lower levels of WM. But this must be a trade-off. Which means wpf function for ranged must be steeper, steepest for archers, bit less for xbow and very few changes for throwing.
  • Changes to archery weapon values, which is why I call it Back to the Roots. Bows get cut damage, except Longbow. Arrows deal cut damage by default, unless combined with Longbow. New damage value for Longbow should be the same as Yumi or 28 pierce. Rus Bow go one point lower to 32 cut. Arrow damage is, starting from 3 for Arrows to 6 for Bodkins (cut). Quiver weight should be lighter, 50 percent for all arrows (5 instead of 10 for Bodkins). Arrow quiver should contain 21 arrows at 7 weight per quiver, Barbed 19 at 6.5 weight per quiver. Tatar 17 at 6 weight per quiver. Bodkins 13 arrows at 5 weight per quiver. Also change weight and price of bows. Longbow should stay at this price but other bows should be quite a lot cheaper. Longbow should be also heavier, instead of 4 kg it should weight 5 kg. Also heirlooms for arrows should change. Masterwork arrows should get +1 damage and +2 ammo. On +1 just +1 damage. In +2 just +2 ammo. On +3 combined as I said. Bow looms should stay the same, no buff for damage.
  • Increase weight threshold for all ranged to 15. But after that point, loss of wpf should be drastic with every 0.1 kg overhead.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 01:51:16 pm »
-1
Tydeus has said that a lot of xbow stuff is hard coded, so we're left with pretty crappy ways to balance them. Not sure if increasing the STR by 3 will help much. They will get 1 more PS but move a little slower/have a little less WPF.

The weight of the xbow with ammo is a bit too low imo. A good shield can weigh a similar amount as xbow and 1 stack of ammo. So why not take a xbow yourself and save the points you spend into shields, move faster or hit harder?

If possible I'd nerf missile speed across the board so hitting targets is more player skill based. Then i'd reduce the accuracy so you need 150+ wpf to have a similar accuracy as you have with 150 now. So the crosshairs get wide quickly <150 . Not sure if this is part of whats hardcoded

If possible a good balance factor for xbows is the reload time. Every second a player stands reloading is more time for his team to be put in bad situations were he can't help at all. I'd tweak reload time for all the xbows

I have a feeling that heavy armour + xbow won't change much regardless since you can just drop the xbow when you actually need the armour in melee, and it still gives better protection from ranged when you are just reloading or moving around. Increasing the armour str requirements is a possibility, but this then affects more classes than just xbows so it needs to be right for the other classes

I wouldn't increase the armour threshold for WPF reduction for archers. They have great melee weapons and manual blocking completely counters a melee players attacks when they finally get in range. When they get hit they should at least take good damage for balance reasons.

For xbows though weight, accuracy and reload time should be juggled imo, and maybe damage. Archers should just have lower missile speed and maybe less armour penetration

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 02:22:38 pm »
-1
Arbalest reach it's peak potential somewhere around 160-170 at 180 wpf while not even 200 wpf is peak potential of Longbow.
Why would we do these changes?
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 03:00:29 pm »
-3
To force further specialization of crossbowmen, just like you did with archers in the past. Archers can't melee cause they don't have wpf for it, why should crossbowmen have that ability?

They'll still be able to have melee wpf if they choose weaker crossbow, instead of arbalest. Currently, there is no reason to choose any crossbow besides arbalest.

Offline stante

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 03:08:11 pm »
-2
To force further specialization of crossbowmen, just like you did with archers in the past. Archers can't melee cause they don't have wpf for it, why should crossbowmen have that ability?

They'll still be able to have melee wpf if they choose weaker crossbow, instead of arbalest. Currently, there is no reason to choose any crossbow besides arbalest.

In a realistic way: You don't really need experience of years to shoot a cow with crossbows because they were simply sniper but bows required decent skill and practise to shoot something and after around 15 shoots your arm would get tired (It is about the type of the bow tho) means less accuary after some shoots...
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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 03:15:34 pm »
0
In a realistic way: You don't really need experience of years to shoot a cow with crossbows because they were simply sniper but bows required decent skill and practise to shoot something and after around 15 shoots your arm would get tired (It is about the type of the bow tho) means less accuary after some shoots...


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Offline Leshma

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 03:24:51 pm »
-3
In a realistic way: You don't really need experience of years to shoot a cow with crossbows because they were simply sniper but bows required decent skill and practise to shoot something and after around 15 shoots your arm would get tired (It is about the type of the bow tho) means less accuary after some shoots...

Dude, you're obviously new here. Realism discussion are subforum lower than this. I'm discussing this matter from gameplay perspective.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 03:26:03 pm »
-2
To force further specialization of crossbowmen, just like you did with archers in the past. Archers can't melee cause they don't have wpf for it, why should crossbowmen have that ability?

They'll still be able to have melee wpf if they choose weaker crossbow, instead of arbalest. Currently, there is no reason to choose any crossbow besides arbalest.
Heavy crossbow is better for battle. Arbalest is way too slow.

Xbow class can not kite, unlike archers. When your crossbow is not loaded, you actually have to draw your sword to fight most of the time if an enemy is up close.
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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 04:16:44 pm »
0
Heavy crossbow is better for battle. Arbalest is way too slow.

Xbow class can not kite, unlike archers. When your crossbow is not loaded, you actually have to draw your sword to fight most of the time if an enemy is up close.

Or just run away until nobody chases you anymore.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 05:26:51 pm »
-1
Or just run away until nobody chases you anymore.
and leave your team to be decimated. What a good strategy. :rolleyes:
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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 06:39:52 pm »
+1
and leave your team to be decimated. What a good strategy. :rolleyes:

Ah yes, I'm sure that one guy running away is a HUGE detriment to his team.

Generally the xbow users that run have high athletics. If just one guy decides to chase him, there's no real loss for either team. If 3+ guys decide to chase him, that's a benefit to his team. He just took 3 people out of the fight by himself. And since they'll never catch him anyway, he'll just wait 'till they get bored and turn around. Then he'll load his crossbow and start shooting again.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 10:20:25 pm »
-2
Archers have more than enough wpf to melee, mine certainly does. The biggest deterrent for archers in melee, is ammo weight, something I would really love to be able to reduce.
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Offline stante

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 10:27:32 pm »
-1
Dude, you're obviously new here. Realism discussion are subforum lower than this. I'm discussing this matter from gameplay perspective.

I am older than you in this game just recently joined to forum and I know that sub forum but if we dont give a fuck to realizm there is no point to balance stuff, I know pretty much all archers want buff and be able to kite and shoot like they did before but before I gave a break to game playerbase was much larger but I doubt playerbase will be like this when the doubleexp is off because it is worth waiting as dead in battle server thanks to doubleexp however I would rather quit server after a spawn headshot kill tbh I still do it no matther how many multi I have it is just annoying

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Offline Leshma

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 11:20:59 pm »
-1
Archers have more than enough wpf to melee, mine certainly does.

Which bow you use and how much archery wpf you have?

Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Ranged rebalance or going back to the roots
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 11:28:35 pm »
-1
Leshma, just pointing out, I had a longbow archer with 154wpf. It was fine for me (unloomed bow). I was accurate enough to be shooting long range