How to nerf archery, without destroying it.

[Leshma]

I feel the same.

Yeah, pretty much. Except on siege you don't have to worry about cav, but rest stays. Still I'm quite low level, at higher levels when I get some melee power that might change.

Currently, melee is very hard to do as an archer because you feel like a tincan but you don't have their survivability or damage. You need exceptional footwork to win any duel, because you are slow.

As an archer things are fine, I am satisfied with damage I deal. But I deal 28-35 cut damage. Most archers use bodkins which change things a lot. Also most archers have more wpf than me.

There are basically three ways to balance archery:

• Keep it as it is. Atm best way is to go full STR archer because you're slow anyway and bonuses from PD are higher than extra wpf you get from going balanced or AGI archer (quote: Sebastian)
• Remove high damage by changing to bows determine damage types, most should be cut. But also remove speed penalty and implement wpf synergy for ranged classes. Allow higher armor. That way best archer build would become hybrid build with mandatory melee weapon.
• Remove high damage by changing to bows determine damage types, most should be cut. But also remove speed penalty and improve long range accuracy of all bows and their damage. This is what we had for awhile. I don't recommend it.

Also point gain is a joke. I know it's meant to force players to play melee and not range but it is over the top really. Okay, I agree that hitting players isn't that hard. But what you should try is to reward headshots. They aren't that easy to pull of with bigger bows which are inaccurate. Smaller bows should be scaled down, most notable their missile speed. That will make it harder to score headshots.[/list]

Also removing projectile stun is good idea imho but certain thrower builds will be also affected so not sure.

[Kafein]

As long as there is no reason to stand your ground as ranged, the best decision will always remain running away. You won't convince any archer that it's a good idea to stop kiting and fight unless archers get better melee builds than pure melee. And this won't change as long as shooting from afar has no disadvantage compared to fighting. The only thing that increasing the melee power of ranged classes does is making them slower and more dangerous to kill if cornered, which gives more time to their ranged friends to shoot you in the back. That would be fine if there was a reason for them to start fighting in melee unless forced to, or if actually forcing them into melee was usually feasible in the first place.

[kinngrimm]

...
That would be fine if there was a reason for them to start fighting in melee unless forced to, or if actually forcing them into melee was usually feasible in the first place.

Making "teamhits of ranged" really costly, could have that effect. That then would mostly only count towards situations where they shoot towards opponents which are already engaged closely with a friendly teammate of theirs. To increase that as an factor the reduction of missile speed would be beneficial in combination.

3 possible positive effects:
- less ranged teamhits
- less interrupting fire
- more concentration of ranged on enemy ranged and cav, formost onto enemies who are not yet engaged in melee

possible negative blowback effects onto the ranged shooter who hits a teammate:
short time effects:
- 70% damage reflection and staggering effect for themselves for every th they do
- strong reduction of accuracy for 7 seconds, as he doesnt want to hit a friend again and gets nervous therefor and needs to gain his calm again
- an automatic sound from the ranged position "DAMIT not again", revealing his position and his mistake

semi permanent effects:
- minus 3 ath till map end for every teamhit/tk
- blurred vison till round end as they cry for their friends they "tked" shot (hey why not  combine this with an animation  )


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All these effects are not stats nerfs, they aim for short time penalties to make ranged life a bit tougher and let them know how not to do it and therefor give them pressure towards a different approach they need to find.

My best guess, if implemented, th's would be reduced slightly as would the rage of opponents whos melee fight would have been interrupted otherwise.


mmm, i would even go so far to make this for all players not only for ranged. But we could test it on ranged first right 
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EDIT:
btw i maybe imagining things but my new policy to report every ranged teamhit, seems to work, i got less th's the past days since consequently report ranged teamhits and say also why from time to time so the ranged players know it is nothing personal against each of them but to do my part to show people they can balance themselve things.

[Leshma]

I'm fairly sure what pisses you off is stun itself and not damage you receive from ranged teamhit (except if it is heavy hitter, like arbalester or bodkin arrow high PD archer).

[Molly]

lol you people are still going?!

[kinngrimm]

I'm fairly sure what pisses you off is stun itself and not damage you receive from ranged teamhit (except if it is heavy hitter, like arbalester or bodkin arrow high PD archer).

i am fairly sure, that by removing stun completly, we loose depth to the game. Getting anoyed to a certain amount by ranged is good, it gives the game atmosphere.

No idear where you get that part with me being pissed of by dmg, i rarely even look at my healthbar when i am playing concentrated, nor do i then talk a lot on ts. Both concepts i can freely advice to use at times to increase anyonce success rate.

[Templar_Steevee]

Maybe, but with the kind of missile speed we got, it's a hell of a lot more likely to score a headshot at 20m than not being blocked on a stab overture.

It looks like you are talking about missile speed from low tier bows. missile speed for rus and long bow is ok, you should also remember that you are not a Witcher....

I already mentioned about missile speed:

4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)

[Ronin]

It looks like you are talking about missile speed from low tier bows. missile speed for rus and long bow is ok, you should also remember that you are not a Witcher....

Steevee you really have to watch wiedzmin TV series or read the book, because witchers are a bit different there. They are mostly less intelligent, stronger, despising ranged weaponry and probably suck at dodging

[Templar_Steevee]

Kinngrimm (and others who wants to read it  )

(click to show/hide)

Making "teamhits of ranged" really costly, could have that effect. That then would mostly only count towards situations where they shoot towards opponents which are already engaged closely with a friendly teammate of theirs. To increase that as an factor the reduction of missile speed would be beneficial in combination.

3 possible positive effects:
- less ranged teamhits
- less interrupting fire
- more concentration of ranged on enemy ranged and cav, formost onto enemies who are not yet engaged in melee

possible negative blowback effects onto the ranged shooter who hits a teammate:
short time effects:
- 70% damage reflection and staggering effect for themselves for every th they do
- strong reduction of accuracy for 7 seconds, as he doesnt want to hit a friend again and gets nervous therefor and needs to gain his calm again
- an automatic sound from the ranged position "DAMIT not again", revealing his position and his mistake

semi permanent effects:
- minus 3 ath till map end for every teamhit/tk
- blurred vison till round end as they cry for their friends they "tked" shot (hey why not  combine this with an animation  )


---------------------------------------------
All these effects are not stats nerfs, they aim for short time penalties to make ranged life a bit tougher and let them know how not to do it and therefor give them pressure towards a different approach they need to find.

My best guess, if implemented, th's would be reduced slightly as would the rage of opponents whos melee fight would have been interrupted otherwise.


mmm, i would even go so far to make this for all players not only for ranged. But we could test it on ranged first right 
---------------------------------------------
EDIT:
btw i maybe imagining things but my new policy to report every ranged teamhit, seems to work, i got less th's the past days since consequently report ranged teamhits and say also why from time to time so the ranged players know it is nothing personal against each of them but to do my part to show people they can balance themselve things.

Mirror dmg and stagger is bullshit untill it is for all players (i played native siege where mirror dmg where on for ALL, and it was nice), but still it's bad idea. M&B is some king af medevial fight simulator, and things like mirror dmg will destroy it.

Every single penalties you suggested, and any others our community can create have no sense. Only penalty you should increase are negative points.


But...

I like idea with shouting if i hit teammate

In total "-" for you for this post.

[kinngrimm]

(click to show/hide)

Kinngrimm (and others who wants to read it  )

(click to show/hide)

Mirror dmg and stagger is bullshit untill it is for all players (i played native siege where mirror dmg where on for ALL, and it was nice), but still it's bad idea. M&B is some king af medevial fight simulator, and things like mirror dmg will destroy it.

Every single penalties you suggested, and any others our community can create have no sense. Only penalty you should increase are negative points.


But...

I like idea with shouting if i hit teammate

In total "-" for you for this post.

thanks for responding!

I am trying to find game mechanics which may be easily implemented, which but are not stats nerf or  item buff/nerf. Game Mechanics which would level a bit the playing field, as from the increase of ranged players i am convinced something needs to be done. Sooner or later the most stubborn of the ranged fantatics have to face the fact that it will harm cRPG more then it does any good if nothing is done at all to counter that trend which started a long time ago.

The discussion mostly here goes over stats or items, the staggering effect is the single mechanic till now which has been really mentioend i think. Totally removing that effect as i mentioend would not be good eitehr, softening the effect , dont know if that would be possible. Getting new effects dont know if devs are still involved adn willing enough to implement -_-, so we would eb back to stats of char and items ...

[Kafein]

It looks like you are talking about missile speed from low tier bows. missile speed for rus and long bow is ok, you should also remember that you are not a Witcher....

I already mentioned about missile speed:

4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)

Well, I can't really talk much about the big ass bows since there are so few around, but the smallest ones shoot lasers that have "bullet" drop somehow.

[Rumblood]

The only thing that makes sense is reverting arrows back to their normal weight, slowing archer movement while a bow is being used, but normal while using a melee weapon, and limiting the max PD and WPF that can be applied to archery, while also lowering the caps for optimum accuracy and damage to those limits. Adjust the damage downwards for archery (as long as accuracy at the cap is actually accurate).

That will prevent archers from running away from melee who have invested more than 0-2 points in athletics, give them their footwork back in melee fights, keep them from dumping all point and wpf into archery related skills and put some minimum amount into PS and melee wpf. You will see archers doing less damage at range, unable to flee when melee is in range, and being more than an automatic kill once caught by a player with any skill at all. Melee will still have far more damage, speed, and armor while being equal on footwork. Lowered damage on ranged should (iirc) result in more interrupts and fewer staggers from being hit. If not, make it so.

[Templar_Steevee]

Rumblood, that's not a good idea.

If you will give archer ability faster, he will use it to kite.


As I understand your suggestion if you will have bow in your hand you will be slow, but if you will put in or you back you will run faster.

For players with hi ath bulid and low tier bow time to draw a bow is a split a second. they will just pull out melee weapon to run away, and then take a bow and shoot. That will be totally gay move, but archers will do that

[kinngrimm]

... reverting arrows back to their normal weight, slowing archer movement while a bow is being used, but normal while using a melee weapon, ...

Wouldnt they then not just kite again while carrying melee weapon? How about the kiting where they drop everything only to run in circles to then pick up again ..drop again to run in circles .... or just running away indefinetly till some other ranged would shoot the kiter or round end flags are up.

So i would perhaps make the logic like:
Aslong a ranged weapon is skilled pt/pd or wpf set xbow/bow/throwing, the movement is slowed down by default.
Only when a melee fight would be taking place, the movement restrictions would be lifted.

[Templar_Steevee]

Only when a melee fight would be taking place, the movement restrictions would be lifted.

but we have it already, all you need to di is drop a bow