Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Butan]

I'm implying nothing more from now on, my main goal was to make you guys say it for me so that I dont look stupid    the fear of over-intellectualizing as taken me, also I think we may go off-topic too much.


But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

[AntiBlitz]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but 1 billion is not that much for a country such as Ukraine.

was a hint bit of sarcasm, i was going to put in there a bunch of stuff about how now all the Ukrainians can have pools now built in their yards from the money since the russians are claiming their black sea vacation waters.

[Kafein]

But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

Economic growth is just an indicator of the "speed" at which a region evolves, not of where it is. In my opinion what's important is where this growth brings you. Countries with two digit growth are actually growing faster than technologic innovation and their population growth, as they are bridging the gap between their economic activity and that of the modern countries. This kind of growth is not sustainable for longer than it takes to cross that gap unless you also have extremely high population growth which isn't desirable at all.

[Teeth]

But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

Two digit numbers are usually more of a sign that a country's economy was doing terribly beforehand than a sign that it is doing good now. Such growth numbers usually level out within one, very rarely two decades simply because a country attains an economy that actually starts to function. I literally have no idea how you see sustaining two digit growth numbers as more important than actually providing a higher standard of living to citizens, ergo the creation of a middle class.

Love how you find normal that USA/EU kinda buy Ukraine loyalty    Russia did it for years, lets not be naive (and thats partly why they didnt break from them till then) but you shouldnt be too happy about it, since it just mean what me and others have said all this time : Ukraine crisis is just the result of influence contest between EU (USA) - Russia, like "who throw the most money at them" competition.
How can you not see it and be happy for them receiving money of someone who supported the utter destruction of the country of Ukraine just to have control over it makes me wanna cry a little.

Staggering how you can completely ignore the internal aspects of this conflict and throw it all on the international stage, despite all the Ukranians here telling you otherwise. Your assumptions about the degree of EU involvement in the protests are some tin foil hat euroskeptic shit, is your grandfather De Gaulle or something?

[Kuujis]

I'm implying nothing more from now on, my main goal was to make you guys say it for me so that I dont look stupid    the fear of over-intellectualizing as taken me, also I think we may go off-topic too much.


But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

I told you once, I will repeat it again.
1. You have not lived under russian rule, under communism - you will not understand what its like. You can blabber about evil west all you want, but always remember - you never experienced an alternative so its cheap for you to take your "indepdendent" and "hipster" pose.
2. You do not know the kind of "wild capitalism" thriving under corrupt and moronic government.

Memories of the first and too much of the second were I believe quite high in the list of the reasons for the whole civil unrest (which unfortunately turned into not that civil, once repressions and fire-fights started).

[Butan]

Staggering how you can completely ignore the internal aspects of this conflict and throw it all on the international stage, despite all the Ukranians here telling you otherwise. Your assumptions about the degree of EU involvement in the protests are some tin foil hat euroskeptic shit, is your grandfather De Gaulle or something?

You truely think that Ukrainians are the most neutral in this case? There is a good reason you cant be both witness and victim in a trial. Still of course they are the first source of reports since its happening around them, but as much as my point is arguable, such is trying to push for others having better judgement than others, which is my main beef against people in this thread.


Also I am obviously only noting the "not eurocentric-ukraine" facts since most of the posters here are reporting the friendly ones. If the debate was balanced I wouldnt even feel the need to post. Dont confuse devil advocate and will to add fuel to a debate that needs going further away from the single-minded monopoly and staleness it could very well end in, if one side dominate the argument.
Forming your opinion when there is only one voice available is what I call brainwashing, and please dont ask me again "but what if only one side is saying truth/being good" 

[Kuujis]

You truely think that Ukrainians are the most neutral in this case? There is a good reason you cant be both witness and victim in a trial. Still of course they are the first source of reports since its happening around them, but as much as my point is arguable, such is trying to push for others having better judgement than others, which is my main beef against people in this thread.


Also I am obviously only noting the "not eurocentric-ukraine" facts since most of the posters here are reporting the friendly ones. If the debate was balanced I wouldnt even feel the need to post. Dont confuse devil advocate and will to add fuel to a debate that needs going further away from the single-minded monopoly and staleness it could very well end in, if one side dominate the argument.
Forming your opinion when there is only one voice available is what I call brainwashing, and please dont ask me again "but what if only one side is saying truth/being good" 

Attempting to backtrack while keeping up straight face and not ending up a fool - check. Being a hipster has nothing to do with being unbrainwashed devils advocate. Its like arguing agains global warming - only shows ... well... personal qualities

[Thomek]

Butan,  your POV makes sense if you think Russia=Eu more or less good and bad, but this is simply not true. Me and Dave have seen both sides with our eyes, as well as Kuujis and PTX have have the baltic perspective.

I'm sorry but Russian system is simply Rotten, bad for people and horrible for Russians and everyone else alike. EU is a far far far far lesser evil. There is no comparison.

[DaveUKR]

I'm ready to donate for Butan's trip to provincial Russia (cities excluding Moscow and St. Petersburg), I will earn x10 money winning the bet that he won't survive there longer than 24 hours.

Hot news: Russians and "self-defences" claim that they managed to destroy 2 NATO UAVs with only guns  Obviously some bullshit, but funny though.

[Piok]

Hurry up Ukraine join EU and NATO paradise
Imagine never ending applause of former members
After few years of it you realize it is most dreadful sound on this planet
..and in meantime you began to like Russian vodka again cos after it reality is bearable  

[Kuujis]

Hurry up Ukraine join EU and NATO paradise
Imagine never ending applause of former members
After few years of it you realize it is most dreadful sound on this planet
..and in meantime you began to like Russian vodka again cos after it reality is bearable

SHOCKING NEWS FLASH - Even in EU/NATO one has to EARN a good living. On the up side - there is much more security for a common person to strive for his/her goals in life.

[Segd]

Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.

Sure, the Great Soviet Union, so stronk!
Lets talk about masterpiece of cooking engineering - Microwave oven.
West: invention in 1947 & mass usage since 1967.
USSR: mass usage in few years after this commie shit collapsed.

I would prefer to be human in a normal country, rather than slave cattle in a great one.

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P.S. Googled IQ distribution, I'm smarter than Kofein :p
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[Paul]

At least the walkways were heated.

[Piok]

SHOCKING NEWS FLASH - Even in EU/NATO one has to EARN a good living. On the up side - there is much more security for a common person to strive for his/her goals in life.

more security for a common person 

[DaveUKR]

The liberator of eastern Ukraine from Nаzism is a member of... ultra-nаzi Russian organization (Russian National Unity). Pavel Gubarev is a self pro-claimed governor of Donetsk (Russian part of it "elected" him a couple of weeks ago). Why I'm not even surprised? 

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