Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 625041 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1515 on: March 11, 2014, 02:29:37 am »
+4
You're an idiot, Kafein.

No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences

Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1516 on: March 11, 2014, 02:43:31 am »
+8
- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences

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Offline djavo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1517 on: March 11, 2014, 03:03:29 am »
+1
I really hope there won't be any war because this guys will kill everything that moves...

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Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1518 on: March 11, 2014, 03:24:12 am »
+2
I agree that Kafein is an idiot.

Back on topic, please let's stop throwing shit at each other.

(Here is some more sober theories for the extremists on both sides)

Putin is doing this mainly for himself to gain popularity and his re-election. (Just like it can be argued Bush did..)

If Ukraine would join EU, or just simply fall under the western sphere of influence, Russia wouldn't have been "pushed" so far west since the 1550s. He manages to create the idea in many Russian people that Russia and Russians well being is threatened by the west, which is utter bullshit. Germans or French are not threatened culturally by the EU, why should Russians.

The EU:
To understand what is really going on here, we first have to understand what EU is. EU is primarily a mechanism to transfer power from the political governments to the owners of Capital. Before EU, any country could protect their industry, threaten to stop coal transfers, block the sale of cheese or water. Basically, every country could do like Russia do now: Stop the flow of gas, give cheaper gas/oil to their friends, and trade it for anything else that might have been agreed upon. Be it visas or loyalty or simply peace.

The problem with this, for me and you, is that it is horribly inefficient (And leads to an abudance of wars..). The system quickly becomes extremely complex, and elected, incompetent politicians don't have a chance to understand or react quickly to what the market (you) requires. Thus Western Europe have been growing for nearly 70 years while the east have been left in the dust, materialistically speaking. Basically, EU transforms all assets one could normally bargain with into Money. Those that have power in the EU are those with Money, not governments, but private individuals, and in the end, you, the consumer.  (If you choose to stop buying your local Cheese and opt for French cheese, because it's just better, then that is a small vote in the capitalist system to the French to produce more and your local cheese to GET BETTER or DIE.)

That is, in essence, the democratic power of (Fair) capitalism. Less power to government, more to you.

Now, Putin knows exactly what this means. He knows what access to the good shit would do to a Russian economy. He knows how his own power would be obliterated if Russia itself would join such an organization. And he knows that Ukraine is just one step on the way to Russia..

Now, one could take the perspective globally, which would benefit Putins point of view even more. Russia has the largest landmass of any country on earth and they probably only have very rough estimates of the resources they control. It is not conspiratorical to say that one day, perhaps even now, the rest of the world hungers for those resources. Russia is not Belgium..

Thats 2 reasons for why Putin does like he does. 1 to keep himself in power, 2nd is to keep EU as far away as possible. In the meanwhile, Russians have to suffer under a rotten kleptocracy, and Ukraine will be kept down and weak as a buffer.

Sad, but I think it is the bitter truth. For Ukraine, I hope you get to keep at least the east, and don't take too long getting up to speed and showing Russia what a fair (non corrupt), democratic capitalism can do. Go west, then go back home with lessons learned and fix home.
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That Thomeck-delay-kicking bussiness is like that asshole-retard dude that fucks your sister sometimes.

Offline Dark_Blade

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1519 on: March 11, 2014, 03:26:07 am »
+1
No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences
the fact of your answer is proof that your first argument is a lie D:
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Offline Swaggart

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1520 on: March 11, 2014, 03:34:52 am »
+1
No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences

You're Chinese?

Offline Dark_Blade

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1521 on: March 11, 2014, 03:37:14 am »
+1
Thus Western Europe have been growing for nearly 70 years while the east have been left in the dust, materialistically speaking.
1 sentence, 2 lies.
Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 03:40:23 am by Dark_Blade »
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Offline Havoco

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1522 on: March 11, 2014, 04:05:01 am »
+1
I really hope there won't be any war because this guys will kill everything that moves...

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Is that supposed to be ur citizens police over there or something?
Pock gobblers

Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1523 on: March 11, 2014, 08:03:42 am »
+2
Quote
If you choose to stop buying your local Cheese and opt for French cheese, because it's just better, then that is a small vote in the capitalist system to the French to produce more and your local cheese to GET BETTER or DIE.

Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.

That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.

Offline Prpavi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1524 on: March 11, 2014, 08:21:25 am »
+3
Croatian mainstream media:

This shows pro-russian soliders (whatever that means, doesn't say if the are ukrainian soliders supporting Russia or russian soliders, maybe by the cammo or the badges on their sleeves Dave and the guys can tell) on the border crossing Chongar (don't know where that is again could use help from the locals) checking people trying to get into Chrimea.

The pictures show much and nothing at the same time, the context is missing.

What I lol'd about is this soliders state of the art flashilght on an AK  :mrgreen:

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And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1525 on: March 11, 2014, 08:27:06 am »
+1
Chongar is one of two ways from Crimea to mainland, the eastern one.
As for camo - it was used by Berkut - former ukrainian police special forces who were the main power opposing protesters in Kiev.

Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1526 on: March 11, 2014, 08:42:37 am »
+1
1 sentence, 2 lies.
Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.
Jesus, you really are an idiot. Sorry, but it is rather obvious in this one.
First of all, why do you think the USSR broke apart and opened up to the West? Because they still were one of the most powerful in the World? Really? Is that the reason you believe in? I honestly do wanna know why you think the USSR broke into bits.
Second, the beautiful part of the West is that you can be the most uninformed, egoistic, conspirational-theory believing, unemployed douchebag around and still have civil rights nonetheless.

Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.

That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.
People seem to forget that the market has its very own interest in the Ukraine joining the EU. Granted, it's as far away from a noble cause as possible but unemployment rate isn't necessarily an issue if you're willing to sell.
A new country is a new market and new place to build factories with cheaper labour compared to other countries. Rather simple to understand. Just don't make the mistake to compare your country with established industries like France and Germany. That won't happen over night but over decades. There will be new factories from VW, Peugeot and others. New, shiny factories where people can work. For low money ofc, probably still enough to live from...

I'm clearly not saying that it will be awesome but I am actually confident that it will be going forward slowly. Not to mention that becoming part of the EU means that you can simply grab your bag and go to another EU country and start working there. That has its good and bad sides, ofc.
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1527 on: March 11, 2014, 08:50:02 am »
+1
Quote
There will be new factories from VW, Peugeot and others. New, shiny factories where people can work. For low money ofc, probably still enough to live from...

I'm clearly not saying that it will be awesome but I am actually confident that it will be going forward slowly.

I understand that and yes, obviously it would get better over time and EU is good thing for Ukraine in long perspective. What I am scared about is this year and next winter, I'm not really sure Ukraine can survive it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1528 on: March 11, 2014, 09:06:47 am »
+1
I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.
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Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #1529 on: March 11, 2014, 09:17:07 am »
+1
Quote
I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.
We are not new member yet and there is long road to become one. As for money - sadly, we need those money to pay for old loans in the first place and to improve our industry even slightly in second. I understand what our new government are doing and I support it but many other people won't and that is the biggest danger in this situation.