Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Falka]

I dont see how your EU "brainwashed" version is superior Kujiis, at least Ivanich isnt hostile and we can debate. The truth lies in the middle.

Nope, it doesn't. Ofc west side isn't saint, but in this particular case I don't see how you can say that both sides are somewhat right. They're not. WHen Janukowycz was in power noone in EU considered interfering in ukrainians affairs, not to mention sending troops. If ukraine and russia are on the edge of war it's because of what Putin did. I don't deny that in the past west side did more or less the same in a lot of places around the world, but it doesn't change that this crisis we have thanks to russia.

[Butan]

Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.

[Falka]

Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.

Let's put aside arguments and shit talking of both sides; russian army invades ukraine, that's what happening. Why they do that is meaningless.

[DaveUKR]

Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.

Russia had only 2 friendly parties that could potentially pass 3% barrier to get into a Parliament. Those were the Yanukovich's party (Party of Regions, mostly consisted of mafia from the eastern Ukraine) and Communists' party. Since Russia doesn't support their own Communists it would be freaking stupid to support Ukrainian commies (they're commies only on papers, they have nothing to do with real communists as they simply betrayed all the principles of communism and they only get support from extremely old population of soviet Ukrainians, thus they get less support each year - their electorate simply dies because of age). The party of Yanukovich tried to take all the major and minor business in all cities of Ukraine. During only a couple of years, Ukraine became a good old Chicago, the level of banditism and corruption reached its top being compared to Ukraine of early 90's. How the hell can this be justified?

P.S. Butan, change your sig with that ridiculous large image.

[Kuujis]

I dont see how your EU "brainwashed" version is superior Kujiis, at least Ivanich isnt hostile and we can debate. The truth lies in the middle.

I think this topic deserve better than insults, we have managed to speak correctly to each other (for the most part) for 50 pages, lets not stop it here, just because the heat is increasing in Ukraine doesnt mean we have to increase it on the internet...



I think like Osiris on "who's the most honest country": everyone is using his power quite liberally and use propaganda to look like the best.
Might makes right even today, the only thing that changed from the middle age is the size of the alliances which are now on a planetary scale, and the danger of enabling them is interfering with human survival instinct.

Judging by "le" in "le Butan" - you are french? I therefore would argue, that you do not know what a proper brainwash is. Ever been tried for speaking against your current govenrment? Or been prosecuted and abused in jail for bringing corruption to daylight? Thats what russia is unfortunately. In EU there is a healthy pluralism going, with various different opinions going back and forth, various sources of information. russia - not so and thus - one can't compare lets say France with russia. MY father once said - only if the same info is repeated in 3 sources in media - it could be considered semi-trust worthy, but when only russian-state-controlled ones spew some specific bullshit, while all the other say different thing or at least do not throw accusations like the russian media - I do not see a strong brainwash on western side, and a HUGE one on russian side. Coupled with state controlled religion on top of that...(sic).

EU is making a mistake in thinking that debate and words matter for russia. At least 2 serious international examples (war in Georgia and invasion of Ukraine) show that Russia will start a war first and talk later. And they don't give a fuck.

And yes, I have overreacted like a child in past two posts, but frankly - being polite implies the other side returns the favor.  And I just don't see it in russia today. I see an open threat and being from a small country, which fought for its liberty and achieved it only relatively recently - I'm fucking afraid I will have to one day do, what Dave is about to do shortly (given that full mobilization is announced). And I do not have polite words to the source of my fear.

When ambassador in UN lies openly and pretends to "have no specific information" of which there are FUCKING VIDEOS of Ru troops coming to Crymea - whats the point of talking? They spit in your faces and... you wipe and smile?

As to "wanting resources" and such... what right does Russia have on Ukrainian resources? What the fuck are THEY doing there? Every nation wants something, but only some are fucked up enough to start wars about it. US, russia are among such. Soon (I FUCKING HOPE) China with their wish to take Siberia. Oh mai how fun it will be to listed to pUTIN crying then. I just hope I will not be drafted to go fight on behalf of that idiot.

[Beauchamp]

i was just thinking: there're 60 percents of native russians on crimea. would really all of them support "putin" over getting closer to the "western civilization" in possible referendum? imho any result of free referendum is very uncertain.  on the other hand if you have there a few tens thousands of soldiers in crimea, there can be no doubts how any vote will finish

i overall rather support separation of countries based by nationality rather than historic borders. in case of my country (czechoslovakia) i'm not even sure if it was good idea to integrate sudeten into our territory. if so then at least germans should get some kind of autonomy there. all in all it in the end just led to peoples suffering not putting their opinion into consideration. when germans invaded it turned the other way around resulting again into nothing else than pain. in the end 3mil of germans had to leave my country. when commies came, they again separated society "focusing" only some part of it. if the population is divided in nationality/opinion/religion, one can't really favour one part of population over the other.

if some part of country wants to split then hell let them go, but it has to be done by themselves after some national consensus that this is the best way. not in the way when one country sends their army into another one to "protect" their landsmen. if the conflict arises, it will dig a ditch so deep, that one generation won't be able to dust it (as our otherwise completely retarded czech president in this case very well said). but russians were always imeprialists, they always followed only their interests and nobody's else and they always will be the same.

their "civilization" that just works on different rules which is in the end what is this all about. in our territory you either belong to the western civilization or to the east. some people just have the bad luck they're on the borders and have to constantly fight for where they want to belong. and with all the iraqs, lybias and other cases i hate i will still pick untasty uncle mc'donalds anytime over gulag - nothing else really matters.

[Osiris]

I do not see a strong brainwash on western side, and a HUGE one on russian side. Coupled with state controlled religion on top of that...(sic).

EU is making a mistake in thinking that debate and words matter for russia. At least 2 serious international examples (war in Georgia and invasion of Ukraine) show that Russia will start a war first and talk later. And they don't give a fuck.

I seem to remember Iraq and Afghanistan and the massive media attempt to say Iraq is bad it has WMD and is targeting London and how we have to invade to protect ourselves etc and then invading a country that's no less brainwashing of total BS than you hear from Russia. Fact is Might is Right if the west can do it so can the east. Time will tell how far Russia will go with this or if they will just invade and set up a puppet govt and take out lots of cash like we do ^^

[Nessaj]

[Overdriven]

I seem to remember Iraq and Afghanistan and the massive media attempt to say Iraq is bad it has WMD and is targeting London and how we have to invade to protect ourselves etc and then invading a country that's no less brainwashing of total BS than you hear from Russia. Fact is Might is Right if the west can do it so can the east. Time will tell how far Russia will go with this or if they will just invade and set up a puppet govt and take out lots of cash like we do ^^

Except there were mass protests numbering in the millions when the invasion of Iraq occurred. It was the politicians who claimed the WMD theory. But, at least here in the UK, no one (or at least no many) really believed it for a second.

[Molly]

[...]
i overall rather support separation of countries based by nationality rather than historic borders. in case of my country (czechoslovakia) i'm not even sure if it was good idea to integrate sudeten into our territory. if so then at least germans should get some kind of autonomy there. [...]

Oh, you can keep the Sudeten-Germans. I can confidently tell that most Germans do not consider them German anymore. Maybe they do and some people still living in the past do but the general public is  whenever they make an appearance of any sort.

[Beauchamp]

Oh, you can keep the Sudeten-Germans. I can confidently tell that most Germans do not consider them German anymore. Maybe they do and some people still living in the past do but the general public is  whenever they make an appearance of any sort.

well now its not a problem to keep that area since almost no germans live there anymore
the only one who could separate us from sudety are russians if they come to help their "oppressed" people living in karlsbad.

[Molly]

There actually is a "movement" to return the Germans kicked out back then to their former property and stuff. Taking median of the age of said "movement", you'll end up with something around 75, I guess
Nobody takes them serious tho. With good reaosn

[LordBerenger]

Russia had only 2 friendly parties that could potentially pass 3% barrier to get into a Parliament. Those were the Yanukovich's party (Party of Regions, mostly consisted of mafia from the eastern Ukraine) and Communists' party. Since Russia doesn't support their own Communists it would be freaking stupid to support Ukrainian commies (they're commies only on papers, they have nothing to do with real communists as they simply betrayed all the principles of communism and they only get support from extremely old population of soviet Ukrainians, thus they get less support each year - their electorate simply dies because of age). The party of Yanukovich tried to take all the major and minor business in all cities of Ukraine. During only a couple of years, Ukraine became a good old Chicago, the level of banditism and corruption reached its top being compared to Ukraine of early 90's. How the hell can this be justified?

If Dave is really an Ukrainian here (DaveUKR) his opinion is the only one that matters here.


Also USA got laser and plasma weapons in the sky and can easily destroy all nukes Russia got.

[Yarl]

At the beginning I was supporting Ukranians, but now since they`re asking help from islamofascist terrorists, I hope Putin nukes those suckers back to the stone age.

http://silveristhenew.com/2014/03/01/ukrainian-nationalists-call-for-help-from-terrorists-to-fight-russia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov

Some of them Dudaev's comrades. Hey Europe, look at your new citizen lol.  I'm joking, he doesn't like you.
Our TV (russian) uses them (Right Sector)  for discredit protests (actually It's not difficult, cuz they hate Russia and some of them took part in Chechen War against Russia)

(click to show/hide)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

[Torost]

Anyone else puzzled that twice in a row now, conflict/civil war in that region involving Russia break out at the same time as the Olympics?
Good or bad timing?

It is a few weeks every 2nd year, so it can happen by chance.

Georgian–Ossetian conflict broke out during the Olympics in Beijing 2008