Meanwhile in Ukraine

[pepejul]

OFC it is.... that's why it doesn't work in real riot ! 

[Thomek]

https://vimeo.com/86495729

Student made film with interviews in english about the riots. Very different from the rest of the coverage we see.

[Dark_Blade]

second part of video is subjective and pointless. first part is better. yes, there is no such department without any corruption. its everywhere... but its not about goverment, not just about goverment. they are whining about corruption, then each of them become teachers, doctors, maybe simple workers but maybe members of goverment and some of them will be corrupted and they will forget everything what they was standing for and will just do thing their greedy nature says them to do. I am agree with the words "I dont see my future in this country" cuz for me its so too...  but I dont  carry any illusions about it. you can take down the goverment but you will never take down whole nation and yourself.

there is one fine russian adage for case like this. something like "its same as kill rabbit to avenge the bear".

[Thomek]

I love russian sayings and proverbs!

I think the problem is the government doesn't do enough to deal with the corruption and change things, and they are also thieves themselves. You need an unbiased law system first of all.

[serr]

Dark Blade, you are wrong, it is completely possible to fight corruption and it would be wrong to say that everything in Ukraine is corrupted. When I was student, no professor from my faculty ever took bribe while I was studying there for all I know. There were several cases known to me when they were offered, but simply rejected. Even more than that, one time we tried to gift our professor of mathematical analysis a box of sweetes, it wasn't bribe at all, we just liked him a lot, yet he apologized and rejected it, saying that it is against his principles to take anything from students.
 
Another story, my friend is studying in neighbor university and some professors there simply force students to pay, making lists of those who did and you will never get high mark if you are not on the list, no matter how good you are. Everyone knows it, this shit is going on for really long time, yet noone did anything about it.

Obviously, there are lot of honest people who don't take bribes, still there are also many assholes who don't give a shit about honesty and laws.
Basically what government has to do is reward first and punish latter, nothing more. Unfortunately, that's not something we can hope for.
So yes,

but its not about goverment, not just about goverment

it is mostly about government. While you are right and you can find corruption in any area of life in Ukraine, the only way it could be reduced - if government started to take real actions for it.

they are whining about corruption, then each of them become teachers, doctors, maybe simple workers but maybe members of goverment and some of them will be corrupted and they will forget everything what they was standing for and will just do thing their greedy nature says them to do.

you will never take down whole nation and yourself

How easy it is to claim everyone around you take bribes, steal, cheat, to convince yourself that it is true, isn't it? Doesn't it make you feel better against their background? Doesn't it excuse and justify your own actions, no matter what you do, since you can always find someone worse and claim that all people are the same?

Don't take it personally, I don't want to offend you, I just really hate such approach, which is unfortunately quite common and which is probably the main reason why there is so high level of corruption. 

[Torost]

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140212/187460252/Judge-Who-Sentenced-Protesters-Shot-Dead-in-Ukraine.html

That is a pretty crazy escalation. Will turn up the heat in this conflict if it becomes a new trend. one step closer to civil war.

Do not know if the source is credible..

[serr]

He didn't really sentence them - he had chosen measure of restraint and not the strictest - house arrest, while prosecution demanded to take them into custody

In Kiev one policeman and three protesters were shotted dead by unknowns before. Whoever did that, their only goal was to escalate conflict.

[Dark_Blade]

Dark Blade, you are wrong, it is completely possible to fight corruption and it would be wrong to say that everything in Ukraine is corrupted. When I was student, no professor from my faculty ever took bribe while I was studying there for all I know. There were several cases known to me when they were offered, but simply rejected. Even more than that, one time we tried to gift our professor of mathematical analysis a box of sweetes, it wasn't bribe at all, we just liked him a lot, yet he apologized and rejected it, saying that it is against his principles to take anything from students.
 
Another story, my friend is studying in neighbor university and some professors there simply force students to pay, making lists of those who did and you will never get high mark if you are not on the list, no matter how good you are. Everyone knows it, this shit is going on for really long time, yet noone did anything about it.

I have just same examples from my own experience. most of teachers are not corrupted but that doesnt fix the rest who are. at medicine and justice its even worse. and I will repeat, its not just about goverment.

How easy it is to claim everyone around you take bribes, steal, cheat, to convince yourself that it is true, isn't it? Doesn't it make you feel better against their background? Doesn't it excuse and justify your own actions, no matter what you do, since you can always find someone worse and claim that all people are the same?

you said much more than I meant to explain. I was writing huge explanation... but deleted all it because its hardly understandable.
well if shortly - none of us is a saint and sins of other people doesnt forgives our own sins.not all people think so...

and I was talking about probability, not about facts...

[Thomek]

It is about government, because corruption will not just disappear all by itself. You need a government that is able to act and put in a proper law system, to start the long road of reducing it.  Now this will likely not happen because most of the politicians would get in big trouble themselves..

[Segd]

Btw, nice example of Corruption & Government:
1)Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causa_Guttenberg
In February 2011 it was discovered that Guttenberg's thesis contained texts of other autors without citation. This led to plagiarism accusations against Guttenberg, sparking public and political debates. Guttenberg denied any plagiarism, but asked the University of Bayreuth to revoke his title, admitting "severe errors in workmanship." The university revoked his title on 23 February 2011, announcing further investigations. Due to public and political pressure, Guttenberg resigned on 1 March 2011 as Minister of Defence.
In November 2011 the attorney’s office in Hof dropped the charges against Guttenberg after having found just 23 relevant copyright violations with only minor economic damage.

2)Meanwhile in Soviet Russia:
Astakhov - Children's Rights Commissioner for the President of the Russian Federation (children's ombudsman), Russian politician, celebrity lawyer and television personality. The Russian State Library tested his doctoral thesis for plagiarism and discovered that only 0.68% of the text was original work, the remainder having been copy-pasted from other sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Astakhov
Still works for Putin, nobody cares.
Other famous dudes with fake dissertations(theses):
О. Ю. Баталина member of Parliament
Н. Ю. Белых governor
В. К. Бочкарёв governor
В. В. Бурматов member of Parliament
В. А. Васильев member of Parliament
А. Ю. Воробьёв governor of Moscow District
Д. Ф. Вяткин member of Parliament
В. С. Груздев governor
А. Ю. Дрозденко governor
И. Н. Игошин member of Parliament
О. И. Ковалёв governor
И. В. Лебедев member of Parliament
Г. С. Полтавченко governor
С. С. Собянин mayor of Moscow
& about a hundred ppl more 

They still keep their doctorate & government positions.
Why?

(click to show/hide)

Why not, lol
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Can't even describe how I hate my country.


Oh damn, almost forgot to write about why Guttenberg is so famous. His resignation parade:

[Thomek]

Just to tell you how it should work..

In norway in recent years, there have been many cases forcing ministers to resign. One where the minister for immigration had to resign because she told a friend she should apply to the position of "Childrens Guardian", another because his department had directly given money (about 30k  euros) to a small "Self defence for girls" program organized by his youth party without them having to apply for the money.

That's what it takes, a small sidestep or abuse of power and the press slaughters you. The higher up, the higher the chance of falling.

We are ruthless against any kind of small mistake or corruption, and that's how it should be.

[Xant]

"We"? You mean the press is.

[Kafein]

"We"? You mean the press is.

That's true, but the press is better than nothing right?

[Torben]

(click to show/hide)

Btw, nice example of Corruption & Government:
1)Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causa_Guttenberg
In February 2011 it was discovered that Guttenberg's thesis contained texts of other autors without citation. This led to plagiarism accusations against Guttenberg, sparking public and political debates. Guttenberg denied any plagiarism, but asked the University of Bayreuth to revoke his title, admitting "severe errors in workmanship." The university revoked his title on 23 February 2011, announcing further investigations. Due to public and political pressure, Guttenberg resigned on 1 March 2011 as Minister of Defence.
In November 2011 the attorney’s office in Hof dropped the charges against Guttenberg after having found just 23 relevant copyright violations with only minor economic damage.

2)Meanwhile in Soviet Russia:
Astakhov - Children's Rights Commissioner for the President of the Russian Federation (children's ombudsman), Russian politician, celebrity lawyer and television personality. The Russian State Library tested his doctoral thesis for plagiarism and discovered that only 0.68% of the text was original work, the remainder having been copy-pasted from other sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Astakhov
Still works for Putin, nobody cares.
Other famous dudes with fake dissertations(theses):
О. Ю. Баталина member of Parliament
Н. Ю. Белых governor
В. К. Бочкарёв governor
В. В. Бурматов member of Parliament
В. А. Васильев member of Parliament
А. Ю. Воробьёв governor of Moscow District
Д. Ф. Вяткин member of Parliament
В. С. Груздев governor
А. Ю. Дрозденко governor
И. Н. Игошин member of Parliament
О. И. Ковалёв governor
И. В. Лебедев member of Parliament
Г. С. Полтавченко governor
С. С. Собянин mayor of Moscow
& about a hundred ppl more 

They still keep their doctorate & government positions.
Why?

(click to show/hide)

Why not, lol
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Can't even describe how I hate my country.


Oh damn, almost forgot to write about why Guttenberg is so famous. His resignation parade:

Our country needs a man like Gutenberg.  Damn shame we lost him.  To critique of opposing parties,  who themselves had politicians with troublesome doctor thesises,  as was found out later.
hate politics...

[Butan]

Just to tell you how it should work..

In norway in recent years, there have been many cases forcing ministers to resign. One where the minister for immigration had to resign because she told a friend she should apply to the position of "Childrens Guardian", another because his department had directly given money (about 30k  euros) to a small "Self defence for girls" program organized by his youth party without them having to apply for the money.

That's what it takes, a small sidestep or abuse of power and the press slaughters you. The higher up, the higher the chance of falling.

We are ruthless against any kind of small mistake or corruption, and that's how it should be.

The problem with that is most of the time the "press" is fed informations just at the right time. If you know what I mean.
The information is often a tool to attack, it is never sure if the information is the truth, as long as it hurts and people believe it will have done its job.

The press is good when they investigate and find the truth, without anyone pushing them one way or another. Its bad when its just used as a mean to transmit small irrelevant bits of information that are only aimed at destroying people's lives because they are opposing you or others.


Ministers resigning are often the silliest cases of defamation one can hear in his life.
The higher up, the more lobby wants your head for whatever reasons.