Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Thomek]

You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.

[DonNicko]

You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.

They had, if they would follow the agreement of 21 february. When Yanukovich sighned all what maidan requested for, why the revolt happened? For now Donbass will never join Ukraine, after that battalions' crimes, after city shellnigs. I have just one question why EU accepted that revolt right after sighning of agreement, which would solve a lot of problems.
I talked with my friend from USA, and he said that you russians always frighten others with your nukes, then I asked him what about Hirosima and Nagasaki, he said that it was a need. Same as here. Thomek you have your opinion and nothing would change it. I have mine, I watched a lot of video about Donbass people, my aunt lives in Luhansk. I talked with her. If you want to see full picture, you should learn what ussual people in Donbass think, what they saw by their own eyes, becuase I think you will never see it in your media.

[Nebun]

I didn't say they all chocolate chip cookies, they just allied with them, there is small part of them, because in every country there is a small part of chocolate chip cookies
I would never ally with them in any condition.
Soo when US/EU helping rebels in other countries to make revolution its ok and in Ukraine rebels are criminals? Ah and Russia ofcourse.
Last countries to come out of soviet union are behind in development.
I don't see how joining Eu would immediately help them. And if we need to consider a long run. Our country was improving greatly out of really shitty times since 2000. Up until now

I'm sure u don't see it that way, but in russia i see potential. up to 2000 their dept was growing and reached 146% and right now its about 5%. Army improved greatly. Slowly but surely i think everything else will catch up. Huge deals with China, new international currency soon. New trade partnership/alliance with developing countries.
We'll see how it goes in next 10-20 years.

[Lt_Anders]

They had, if they would follow the agreement of 21 february. When Yanukovich sighned all what maidan requested for, why the revolt happened? For now Donbass will never join Ukraine, after that battalions' crimes, after city shellnigs. I have just one question why EU accepted that revolt right after sighning of agreement, which would solve a lot of problems.
I talked with my friend from USA, and he said that you russians always frighten others with your nukes, then I asked him what about Hirosima and Nagasaki, he said that it was a need. Same as here. Thomek you have your opinion and nothing would change it. I have mine, I watched a lot of video about Donbass people, my aunt lives in Luhansk. I talked with her. If you want to see full picture, you should learn what ussual people in Donbass think, what they saw by their own eyes, becuase I think you will never see it in your media.

That was a war, the first nuclear bombs ever, and an enemy who had clearly set up a full defensive guerilla war. Many in allied high command had thought that Japan would never surrender without an invasion on it's main homeland. The "bombs" were the answer to that. Rather than invading, they thought they could put fear into the Japanese and force them out. Now, as most of that is conjecture(others say that, had the US blockaded Japan, they would have collapsed internally and surrendered), we can't say if it was the right course, but, based on as much as we can tell, it seems to still be the best way to end WW2.

Unlike the US, Russia has threatened Nuclear war(though it was the SU not the current RF) through out it's history. Somethings are hard to erase from peoples minds. In fact, had Russia not been as "haughty" recently(Sochi, followed by Ukraine) I'm sure most people over in the "west" wouldn't give two shits about Russia, save for its border nations. After the SU's fall and end of Cold War, many (older) Americans found things better, but now, they feel like it's the Cold War all over again, thanks to Russia.

TBH, US doesn't need Russia to be a "punching" bag. The US has plenty of area's that they can "deal with"(like the middle east) that were far more important than Russia is today. Then Russia had to go and  Fund Rebels and increase Aggressive Expansion Penalties against neighboring nations. Them bad boy points aren't good.  Only good thing is Russian Putin is a 6-2-6 leader. Gives good bonus to stability and Military.

[Nebun]

You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.

haha you think this battalions stand between russia and donbas? )) if russia would lunch full scale attack on ukraine it would take maybe few weeks for war to be over and chocolate chip cookie battalions would be wiped ... though it would be a bad thing, i think to attack ukraine

You see how nice u can explain what something bad is good.

its just fascinating how so much action happens on NA/EU side in the world considered good and Russian action in a lot lower scale considered sooo bad.
There is a saying here, if it suits US its freedom fighters, and if it doesn't its terrorists.

[DonNicko]

I can not judge about Hirosima and Nagasaki bombs. I just don't like people who state something and doesn't try to see another side. Because for me it is not so clear. When Thomek says that I see only nazis in Kiev, I think he took this from his media, then it is only one side of the medal. I really understand what ukranians feel about Crimea or Donbass. And when I try to show that USA has interests in Ukraine some people start to say that this is impossible.

[Nebun]

That was a war, the first nuclear bombs ever, and an enemy who had clearly set up a full defensive guerilla war. Many in allied high command had thought that Japan would never surrender without an invasion on it's main homeland. The "bombs" were the answer to that. Rather than invading, they thought they could put fear into the Japanese and force them out. Now, as most of that is conjecture(others say that, had the US blockaded Japan, they would have collapsed internally and surrendered), we can't say if it was the right course, but, based on as much as we can tell, it seems to still be the best way to end WW2.

Unlike the US, Russia has threatened Nuclear war(though it was the SU not the current RF) through out it's history. Somethings are hard to erase from peoples minds. In fact, had Russia not been as "haughty" recently(Sochi, followed by Ukraine) I'm sure most people over in the "west" wouldn't give two shits about Russia, save for its border nations. After the SU's fall and end of Cold War, many (older) Americans found things better, but now, they feel like it's the Cold War all over again, thanks to Russia.

TBH, US doesn't need Russia to be a "punching" bag. The US has plenty of area's that they can "deal with"(like the middle east) that were far more important than Russia is today. Then Russia had to go and  Fund Rebels and increase Aggressive Expansion Penalties against neighboring nations. Them bad boy points aren't good.  Only good thing is Russian Putin is a 6-2-6 leader. Gives good bonus to stability and Military.

maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

You even have your EX Adviser, can't remember his name but very popular, write a fucking book about it. Even stated years when US will fuck with each country to take control over them. Every fucking country they do that with end up with US bases and PRO on their territory.
Basic policy of us Divide and Conquer.

If you read a book written in 1998 but a guy who worked for US government and then everything he wrote back then comes to happen at exact dates he mentioned then its hard to consider it bullshit. 

[Nebun]

about WW2 all main leaders back then acted like fuck ups. Before and after WW2

[Lt_Anders]

I can not judge about Hirosima and Nagasaki bombs. I just don't like people who state something and doesn't try to see another side. Because for me it is not so clear. When Thomek says that I see only nazis in Kiev, I think he took this from his media, then it is only one side of the medal. I really understand what ukranians feel about Crimea or Donbass. And when I try to show that USA has interests in Ukraine some people start to say that this is impossible.

I don't think US (would have had) any interest in Ukraine following Maidan, but, Russia did "up the ante" and made the US want to take action. Now, considering our President, he's more interested in making bad policy deals with people like Iran, to patch up his mistake with the ME. It's congress(the people who matter for things like this) that care about Ukraine, and Russia's increasing Pressure in Eastern Europe.

If Russia did fully invade Ukraine, I think the US would truly counter that. Hence, Russia wouldn't want that, and why the US is only pushing "sanctions." It's Cold War all over again, the problem is, who will light the match first.

maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

You even have your EX Adviser, can't remember his name but very popular, write a fucking book about it. Even stated years when US will fuck with each country to take control over them. Every fucking country they do that with end up with US bases and PRO on their territory.
Basic policy of us Divide and Conquer.

If you read a book written in 1998 but a guy who worked for US government and then everything he wrote back then comes to happen at exact dates he mentioned then its hard to consider it bullshit. 

Actually, congress was against the Syrian bombing campaign. The President came out with it, and a lot of people said "No, fuck off!" The US media quickly shut down on it bout a week after the "announcement." Looking back, though, it seems to be a better choice as now the entire area is screwed. But this comes down to some very stupid policy decisions from an incompetent leader. First he withdrew from Iraq way to fast, now he's supporting Shiite lead militia's(opposite of our original support 2 years ago) forcing our former Sunni Countries to want to get their OWN nuclear weapons and arms races going. He's basically flip-floped on his power structure in the Middle East so many times, everyone is getting annoyed at his incompetence over here.

[Nebun]

I don't think so, its fight for influence.
Well Crimea is part of Russia now, where is US?

To avoid nuclear war and still increase their influence US simply installs its governments via revolutions.

[Tibe]

maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

What puppets exactly? Ukraine and Georgia had russian puppets before these types of revolution. They werent even countries. I think you should be friends with Russia. No i mean it. Get these relations even warmer and you get to see what exactly living in a puppetstate actually looks like. Its really odd that you consider befriending USA and Europe as sort of giving your country to someone else, unable to realise its basically just a well planned propaganda. Its a really good excuse  pro-east propaganda: "we may not be as rich as the West, but atleast we arent bound to Western chains." Its just basically a message to tell you to hate EU more and demand less from your own leaders. Its really funny.

[Lt_Anders]

I don't think so, its fight for influence.
Well Crimea is part of Russia now, where is US?

To avoid nuclear war and still increase their influence US simply installs its governments via revolutions.

US has no stake in Ukraine. Never did. EU does though. Like I said: If not for Putin, US wouldn't give two shits about Ukraine. Honestly. There was almost NO media Coverage over Maidan here. At first there was some, then it slacked off, then when the street fighting took place there was more for a bit. Then Russia annexed Crimea: Boom! Bunch of coverage and 2 months of shit plus a shot down airliner...

And now: Nothing. Like I said, US doesn't care. We care about the ME since our President is a fucking Idiot on Foreign policy. Hell, some of his own party called him out on his idiotic ideas over the middle east. (And it's easier to divert our attention from his policies by using things like Ukraine, etc. to divert attention to domestic fails and foreign snafus)

[Molly]

Funny to see how "Putin ordered the annexation of Crimea!" - "No, he didn't, just western propaganda!" is already erased from the minds of Nicko, Tovi and the likes, now that Mr. Putin actually admitted that Crimea is Russian because he wanted it to be.

Still, it's all Kiev's fault and ofc US/EU...
The very single specific move that triggered everything else is calmly ignored and the blame is put on everyone else but the one instance who actually ordered it. Very convenient.

Edit:
Funny fact:
Before Maidan nobody gave a damn about Russia, neither good nor bad. Only mentioning was "might be a good place for good business in the future, tho high risk cuz of corruption."
I am kinda curious how it came to be that everyone now seems to think "The West hates Russia!". That's nonsense. People didn't give a shit till Crimea happened. True story. Just saying...

[Thomek]

Lol.. US didn't instate any puppets in Ukraine. What fucking government would continue to be RF aligned, friendly, or even "neutral" after crimea???

Russia simply pushed Ukraine into the arms of the west. End of story.

About Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I'm of the opinion it was totally unnecessary.. Japan was on the verge to surrender / stop war anyway, but historians differ there.

About the deal of 21st.. Again, it was a revolution. The leaders couldn't have stopped it if they wanted to. The wave just kept rolling. People were too fired up, and didn't have any trust left for Yanukovic.


@Nebun

No I don't think those battalions have much of a function anymore. When they were created they made sense. Not the least just to get the nazis off the streets of Kiev...

And russias intention is not invade or annex ukraine. Just to keep that easily twisted dagger in the side as power projection and to continue influence over ukraine politics. Just like in Georgia and Moldova.

[Lt_Anders]

About Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I'm of the opinion it was totally unnecessary.. Japan was on the verge to surrender / stop war anyway, but historians differ there.

And I disagree, but, you're correct. Japan was on the veirge, but at the same time, they had clearly no intention of surrendering. "What if" is a bad scenario to discuss about somethings because no matter which way you argue, both could be legitimate with just the right information.